Is Velcro the End of Collecting Combat Uniforms?

[tsakers85]

For some time, I have considered velcro patches to be the end of collecting combat uniforms. I felt that unless you obtained a uniform directly from the individual, with perhaps a letter for provenance for the future, there would be no way for combat uniforms to arrive in the market that had not potentially been "put together."

 

Well, it appears there is some hope. I came across this GO uniform on eBay this morning. The seller peruses a base thrift shop regularly and often has GO uniforms for sale. While the thrift shop removes all the name tapes, this example has a sewn on Army tape and sewn on GO insignia. I was under the impression this would all be Velcro in this day and age. The seller does of course note the patches aren't original to the uniform, which is disappointing.

 

Anyone else have thoughts on collecting current combat uniforms?

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/221548429286?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

 

[tsakers85]

Insignia detail

[mvmhm]

The Army began allowing soldiers to sew some insignia a couple of years ago....there a SFC in my Sons of the American Revolution chapter who has everything sewn down on his ACUs.....

 

Mark sends

[RedLegGI]

Velcro will be a problem for collectors and there isn't any way to avoid that. The way to look at a uniforms today that is complete, or mostly complete, is the price. At surplus shops near post, soldiers are selling their tops for less than $10 a top, more than likely around $5. When ebay vendors get and sell them, they mark them up to make their profit, and some don't care if it has zero patches or is 100% complete, they just want to make money. These are the 'legit' uniforms you see at BIN prices of $15 + shipping as an example. As far as they're concerned they've made their money, and they can go buy the next one. The ones that you generally want to avoid are the ones that are completely patched uniforms priced around $40 for a top. While they may look good, these always strike me as being put together. Off the top of my head I can think of 3 multicam tops on ebay right now, that are 100% put together, one vendor even makes a point to show the paper tags still attached to the new top.

 

The other key to this is indeed provenance. If I see a uniform I like and I'm unsure on it, I'll shoot the vendor an e-mail and ask them if it is their personal uniform or if they know the person they got it from. The vendors want to sell so they're more inclined to answer. Now I have a leg up being a veteran and I am always clear as to why I would like the uniform and who I am. Most vendors, if it is their uniform, will tell you exactly what they did, who they were with and when they used it. Velcro is the bane, but you can find legit stuff.

 

The next problem is sewn uniforms like the one you've listed. When the army changed policy this creates the same problem every other era of collector has, when was this sewn on? Right now I don't see it as much of a problem, but as time goes on, it will become a problem again. The same rules above would apply to these uniforms when buying, but for now enjoy it.

[RedLegGI]

As a side note, I've been warned off this vendor by various other collectors.

[tsakers85]

As a side note, I've been warned off this vendor by various other collectors.

 

I've purchased two general officer uniforms from them in the past. A dress blue with a tailor's label naming the officer and a Desert BDU where repeated pressing left a perfect imprint of the officer's name where the tape had been. So if you know what you're looking for, I have no qualms with the seller.

[Major Z]

Buying ACUs will be really easy come next summer. The Army decided in all their wisdom to finally accept the Scorpion pattern as the new approved camo type. This was the precursor to what we all now know as Multicam. Don't get me started on how I feel about all this seeing as how I worked in the Acquisition community! This new uniform should start appearing at PXs in 2015. Anyways, the others are correct that soldiers are allowed to sew on nametapes and rank. That should hopefully allow for good research possibilities. However, the new uniform will also utilize velcro-backed patches. Hey, now you'll be able to collect them all in ugly green and better brown!

[Bob Hudson]

For some time, I have considered velcro patches to be the end of collecting combat uniforms.

 

 

If you look through the forum, you'll see that combat uniforms have always been hard to collect. We see a fair amount of Vietnam War patched utility uniforms that could have been worn in combat, but in previous 20th century wars the soldiers usually did not bring their combat uniforms back to the States. I have found WWII and Korean War utility uniforms with patches and/or other insignia, but actual combat-worn uniforms from those wars seem, to me, to be quite rare.

 

From Desert Storm to now we have seen an incredible array of patched utility uniforms from the Army, Navy and Air Force. The Marines still stick with the name and the branch of service patches, but at least they're sewn on and you can maybe ID the former owner. It's too bad the Army no longer requires laundry stamps in uniforms.

 

I would say that collecting actual combat uniforms has always been hard, with a lull during during the last couple of decades with all those gussied up DCU's, BDu's etc.

[VolunteerArmoury]

On 14 June 2011, we were allowed to sew down the rank, name & branch tapes along with badges. Of one is sewn I believe all are supposed to be sewn down but I can't recall for sure though I've seen some folks sew all but rank or badges. When I came back from overseas I gave some collector buddies some of my uniforms & wrote down my info along with where/when I served in case the insignia come off or in cases were I didn't have spare insignia to give. This way they'd have the provenance until it washed out or faded. I only get uniforms from my buddies these days that I know what they had.

[tsakers85]

 

If you look through the forum, you'll see that combat uniforms have always been hard to collect. We see a fair amount of Vietnam War patched utility uniforms that could have been worn in combat, but in previous 20th century wars the soldiers usually did not bring their combat uniforms back to the States. I have found WWII and Korean War utility uniforms with patches and/or other insignia, but actual combat-worn uniforms from those wars seem, to me, to be quite rare.

 

From Desert Storm to now we have seen an incredible array of patched utility uniforms from the Army, Navy and Air Force. The Marines still stick with the name and the branch of service patches, but at least they're sewn on and you can maybe ID the former owner. It's too bad the Army no longer requires laundry stamps in uniforms.

 

I would say that collecting actual combat uniforms has always been hard, with a lull during during the last couple of decades with all those gussied up DCU's, BDu's etc.

 

I used a term that should have been better clarified. By combat uniforms, I meant utility uniforms.

[Bob Hudson]

 

I used a term that should have been better clarified. By combat uniforms, I meant utility uniforms.

 

Understand - but even then, pre-Vietnam War examples are very hard to find and even harder is finding one with patches or a name that can provide a good lead for research.

[ocsfollowme]

The thing with GO uniforms (2-4 stars), their rank is actually larger than the average uniform can hold, so their uniforms are specially ordered with taller velcro rank backing. However, as every one else stated, you can sew them on since June 11...so it may be harder to prove without a signed letter and photo of the GO.

[CHASEUSA11B]

That particular seller has a history of enhancing DCUs whith sew on insignia so I wouldn't trust his ACUs either

[ASMIC2971]

On 14 June 2011, we were allowed to sew down the rank, name & branch tapes along with badges. Of one is sewn I believe all are supposed to be sewn down but I can't recall for sure though I've seen some folks sew all but rank or badges. When I came back from overseas I gave some collector buddies some of my uniforms & wrote down my info along with where/when I served in case the insignia come off or in cases were I didn't have spare insignia to give. This way they'd have the provenance until it washed out or faded. I only get uniforms from my buddies these days that I know what they had.

If you sew one on, they all need to be sewn on. This includes name tape, U.S. Army tape, rank, and any skill badges.

[RedLegGI]

That particular seller has a history of enhancing DCUs whith sew on insignia so I wouldn't trust his ACUs either

 

This is the same info I've recieved

[Longbranch]

Collecting legit, fully patched/badged ACUs will be very difficult in the future (in fact, it's difficult even now). Even with provenance, there is really no way to prove that a uniform hasn't had insignia added by someone other than the soldier who originally wore it. Also, most ACUs didn't have badges on them when worn in the field since they used the black pin-on examples, so a "combat worn" ACU wouldn't look correct with badges anyway. I have seen a LOT of ACUs with laundry marks inside of them, so maybe at some point FAR into the distant future, it may actually be possible to research them out. If you get them direct from the vets, these laundry marks may also help prove they did indeed belong to that particular veteran.

 

I have purchased quite a few groupings direct from the vets that included several of their field-used ACU uniforms, and to be honest, none of them have EVER had the patches on them when I acquired them. The uniforms were usually laundered and then stored away, and it's necessary that all patches/tapes/badges be removed before they are washed. With these groupings I always ended up with a few well-worn ACU sets and a bag full of patches (all vets seem to have a big ziploc bag full of patches/insignia), and I usually put the patches on myself after the purchase (and after confirming how the vet wore the uniforms). Would these uniforms still be considered "made up" if all of the components come from the vet and the insignia attached exactly how the vet specified? My point here is that even when the uniforms are a "direct-from-the-vet" buy, you are more likely to get a stripped set of ACUs and a bunch of patches as opposed to a uniform that is already all patched up. So anyone that has any strong notions of "original" may be in distress if they try to collect completely "original" ACU uniforms.

 

Still, it may be important for "collectors" to accept that the large amount of stripped & surplused ACUs and velcro patches may open up a very different side of collecting. The uniforms are legit, GWOT related items, as well as the patches that go along with them. It is very easy to acquire a diverse array of patches for very little monetary outlay, and most surplus stores are absolutely flooded with all kinds of velcro backed ACU patches and tapes. There is also a LOT of high-quality photographic and video documentation of different units in Iraq and Afghanistan due to the huge proliferation of digital photographic equipment. Combining all of this together, a collector could make all kinds of cool displays that are historically accurate and using original items to create the displays. Want a good representation of a 101st soldier in Iraq in 2008? How about a 4th Infantry Division soldier in Afghanistan in 2011? Just look up the pictures, hit up a decent surplus store, and you should be able to find everything you'd need. No need to sew patches on or make up a "fake". Just slap some original velcro patches onto a jacket and BAM, it's display ready. Then there are the "TEST" pattern ACU uniforms, the early 2003 contract uniforms, the UCP-Delta uniforms, etc. All kinds of cool stuff to collect.

 

So, I don't think uniform collecting is soon to "end" due to the use of velcro patches. It might change a bit, but it won't end. Besides, there are lots of DCUs and other uniforms that have sewn-on patches/tapes that could be ID'd to the original user. Also, there is a huge market for SF related field uniforms, even if they were never used and have absolutely no connection to a specific individual. Also, as pointed out, the Army does allow soldiers to sew on everything except unit patches, so the era of "velcro only" has come to an end.

 

My guess is that as time goes on, more and more ACUs will be lost due to being worn out, recycled by rag mills, or simply discarded as trash. Someday, they may even be "desirable" for exactly the reasons I mentioned earlier. Vietnam era jungle jackets aren't rare, but nice examples in larger sizes that are completely devoid of patches still sell for surprising amounts of money.

 

To end this lengthy diatribe, I look forward to seeing how the collector's market for ACU/OCP uniforms evolves over time.

[TRR]

I don't see Velcro as the end of collecting combat uniforms. Much like the uniforms have changed over the years, so will the collector. As time goes on and more DCU/ACU/ect... are collected, collectors will establish norms much like VN, KW, WW2, ect... era collectors have. I do think provenance will play a larger role in collecting modern uniforms, but from what I have read on the forum, that is a newer concept than say someone who was collecting in the 70s. Collecting has become very background information driven as we modernize with internet research at our fingertips. I have a few GWOT uniforms and very happy with them, only one has provenance. The others, much like some of my WW2 uniforms make me happy and were not bought to be sold. I think the put-together GWOT uniform questions can be lumped together with the debate on put together VN helmets, whether they are "true" originals or not.

 

Very good topic!

[tsakers85]

That particular seller has a history of enhancing DCUs whith sew on insignia so I wouldn't trust his ACUs either

 

The legitimacy of this piece was not the question. The question is simply whether a lack of "permanent" insignia making uniforms identifiable will impact those that collect a specific genre. I for example only collect identified general officer uniforms.

[ASMIC2971]

I must be one the minority of guys then, I keep all my insignia on my uniforms when washing. I don't like the look of super dirty patches on a uniform. On some of my uniforms I wore in the desert, you could see where the unit patches were as the Velcro is not as faded from the sun. I have a mix of uniforms with sewn insignia and those that are not. Well worn uniforms, either from deployments or just worn for years, will have the outlines of where patches were and this will help future collectors discern those that may have seen combat, and those that have patches slapped on them.

 

Oh and I do have a bag of patches, boot blousers and other misc stuff.

[Longbranch]

I must be one the minority of guys then, I keep all my insignia on my uniforms when washing. I don't like the look of super dirty patches on a uniform. On some of my uniforms I wore in the desert, you could see where the unit patches were as the Velcro is not as faded from the sun. I have a mix of uniforms with sewn insignia and those that are not. Well worn uniforms, either from deployments or just worn for years, will have the outlines of where patches were and this will help future collectors discern those that may have seen combat, and those that have patches slapped on them.

 

Oh and I do have a bag of patches, boot blousers and other misc stuff.

Thanks for your insight. I'm sure a lot of guys did the same thing as you by washing the uniforms with the patches still on, but every OEF/OIF vet I have purchased stuff from did remove everything before laundering. In fact, one stated that they made it a point to NOT leave the patches on when laundering, as they seemed to come off often and get damaged. Guess it depends on how you are washing the uniforms...

 

I agree that a collector can indeed identify uniforms that may have been worn in the field by observing the "ghosting" from patches on the sleeve velcro, but I have also seen VERY worn/faded FR-ACUs (in UCP and OCP) that were obviously used in a deployment that did not exhibit this. There are other small signs of a uniform that was likely fielded in Iraq or Afghanistan (such as removal of the velcro around the collars).

 

One thing I forgot to mention earlier is the increasing use of the "combat shirts" in the field. If you look through OEF/OIF photos from 2006 to the present, you'll see that the Army Combat Shirt became more prevalent in the field. As such, it is also a very important part of OEF/OIF uniform collecting.

[RedLegGI]

The problem that combat shirts generate is that they're not used stateside. You may get a very nice worn and clearly used combat shirt, but the chances of finding it with its patches still attached is next to zero. Some of the exceptions would be with OCP. Some guys may just throw a shirt in their duffle after deployment and not use it *but* with scorpion pattern coming soon, you can bet guys are going to start scrounging rank/tapes off those so they don't have to buy more.

[tsakers85]

I was using the term utility and combat interchangeably. I should have said fatigues. Basically, I mean anything other than a service dress uniform.

[sigsaye]

I don't do Army stuff, but I have a friend who is a Colonel, USAR, and a Flight Surgeon. He loves the Army so spends as much time Active as he can with two tours in Iraq and one in Afghanistan. All of his ACUs have name, Branch, rank and his Flight Surgeon wings HAND SEWN (by his wife). The 1ID and Medical patches on his sleeves are Velcro. His uniform is different as it is for flight crews I guess. But I'm thinking that with the hand sewing, eventually, some one is going to scream "FAKE"

[RedLegGI]

I don't do Army stuff, but I have a friend who is a Colonel, USAR, and a Flight Surgeon. He loves the Army so spends as much time Active as he can with two tours in Iraq and one in Afghanistan. All of his ACUs have name, Branch, rank and his Flight Surgeon wings HAND SEWN (by his wife). The 1ID and Medical patches on his sleeves are Velcro. His uniform is different as it is for flight crews I guess. But I'm thinking that with the hand sewing, eventually, some one is going to scream "FAKE"

 

As long as you have the provenance with it and the why, it won't matter what they "think* lol

 

[CNY Militaria]

I also had all of my insignia on my ACU top sewn on when I was in. Much more comfortable and easier to maintain.