Hessian Posted September 15, 2014 Share #1 Posted September 15, 2014 Although I really only collect USMC, I picked this up because it really caught my eye. The crusher has a great look and the RAF wings on the pocket are neat. The crazy thing about this set is.. it's HUGE. At least by 1940s standards. The jacket is a 44R but fits more like a 46R and the pants are 37" Waist! By far the largest original uniform I've owned. Is the purple and white ribbon a Brit DFC? I can't find a name anywhere in it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hessian Posted September 15, 2014 Author Share #2 Posted September 15, 2014 Last ones. And I think the last ribbon is a French Croix deGuerre or is it Belgian? And does that make sense for this uniform? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wharfmaster Posted September 15, 2014 Share #3 Posted September 15, 2014 British DFC and French C de G, Nice ! W Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
38Driver Posted September 15, 2014 Share #4 Posted September 15, 2014 Any name or any indication of a serial number etc? Looks to be a full sized RAF wing. That would make one wonder as part of the deal in wearing RAF wings along with the USAAF wings was that they were smaller size. Never say never, but you'd think there would be something more to ID the uniform? The striped ribbon is an RAF DFC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ludwigh1980 Posted September 15, 2014 Share #5 Posted September 15, 2014 Is it me or are the AAC and 8th AF patches a little low on the sleaves? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
38Driver Posted September 15, 2014 Share #6 Posted September 15, 2014 Don Gentile and Duane Beeson, both former Eagles. Note the size of the RAF Wings on the right side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
501stGeronimo Posted September 15, 2014 Share #7 Posted September 15, 2014 That is true in some cases, I have had and seen fully ided eagle squadron with full size. I had one 2 months ago fully ided that had a full size set. Hessian, check your pms Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hessian Posted September 15, 2014 Author Share #8 Posted September 15, 2014 Here is a few more pics, maybe these will help. It appears to be a cut down four pocket? Again, this is the first AAF uniform i've owned so be gentle! haha. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hessian Posted September 15, 2014 Author Share #9 Posted September 15, 2014 Thanks for the info/help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hessian Posted September 15, 2014 Author Share #10 Posted September 15, 2014 Regarding the full size RAF wings... I do have a fully ID'ed set of greens and khakis to a WW2 Marine who was dual qualified as a Royal Canadian Air Force pilot and he has full size wings on both sets. But maybe the USMC had different regs.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricardo Posted September 15, 2014 Share #11 Posted September 15, 2014 Great set my friend! No problems at full size RAF wings in US uniforms. I have one and I seen numerous WW2 pictures of U.S. uniforms with full size RAF eagles. Regards, Ricardo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
355fg Posted September 15, 2014 Share #12 Posted September 15, 2014 I generally don't look for reasons why a uniform might not be original as I've seen a lot of odd but totally legitimate uniforms, but this one certainly gives me pause. Everything on it may very well be correct, but he seems to be a big guy to have been a pilot. Maybe, he was a bomber pilot but if he flew any British fighters then that was a tight fit in a Spit or Hurricane aircraft. Also, one campaign on his ETO ribbon yet he had 2 DFC's and 5 Air Medals? Anything is possible, but again, it's unlikely especially with 2 years overseas? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricardo Posted September 15, 2014 Share #13 Posted September 15, 2014 Some images: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricardo Posted September 15, 2014 Share #14 Posted September 15, 2014 My uniform: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricardo Posted September 15, 2014 Share #15 Posted September 15, 2014 Another nice example in USMF: Looking to trade this great cutdown for blue back wings and blue back wing uniforms/ groups. Here is your chance to add a stellar named RAF/USAAF uniform to your AAF collection. British made Bullion Bombardier Wings, British made hand sewn ribbon bar, brit made Stubby wing 8th AAF SSi, and RAF Observer wings. This Major was most likely trained by the RAF hence the wing and was a early bird in the war and ended up with a desk job once he finished his missions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wake1941 Posted September 15, 2014 Share #16 Posted September 15, 2014 That is one beautiful uniform nice find Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allan H. Posted September 15, 2014 Share #17 Posted September 15, 2014 Can we see a better photo of the RAF wing please? Allan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricardo Posted September 15, 2014 Share #18 Posted September 15, 2014 Can we see a better photo of the RAF wing please? Allan Hi Allan, Seems a RAF wings of a full dress uniform. Regards, Ricardo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allan H. Posted September 15, 2014 Share #19 Posted September 15, 2014 Ricardo, One of the areas that I collect is WWII RAF and Commonwealth. There are all sorts of variations of these wings. To say that the wing on Hessian's uniform is a wing "of a full dress uniform" is rather vague, as other than bullion wings for mess dress, the British didn't differentiate wing patterns for types of dress. Allan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted September 15, 2014 Share #20 Posted September 15, 2014 Sadly, without a name, it will be unknown as to whether or not it was a reenactor's uniform, especially in that large size. I will note that both patches on the shoulders are considerably far below where they should be. I will say that, based on these photos, I think the parts of the uniform are legit. Beyond that, there's no way of making a positive ID on it so we'll never know it's complete legitimately for certain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hessian Posted September 15, 2014 Author Share #21 Posted September 15, 2014 Thanks to everyone for the info and insight. I'll be happy to take a close up of the RAF wings this evening to aid in the discussion. Regarding the large size, it's still a wartime originally made uniform so obviously there were people of this size then. I'm sure they were in a minority based on most of the surviving uniforms (small sizes) I've seen in my previous collecting. I don't know the dimensions of a Spitfire cockpit, but I do have a USMC aviator grouping to a guy who was every bit as tall as this gent and flew in a corsair. It looks like this guy was 8th AF. Was that primarily a bomber squadron? Would it make sense that a bomber pilot would have seen service with the RAF? The suggestion that this was used by a reenactor seems less likely due to the fact that it was obviously cut down from a four pocket into an "Ike" sometime during the war. Not saying that it couldn't have been used for that purpose later on, but that someone obviously wore this during the war. I can't find a 'ghost' of any previous patches on the sleeves and the ribbons and DUIs all look to have been there for a long, long time. Also, the stitching is all black light neg and using pre 1946 cotton thread would seem a lot of trouble to go to for someone who was going to use it to reenact or for a hangar dance. Also not to mention that if they had that kind of attention to detail, why mount the patches lower than regulations required? By the way, does anyone know what the regs were? A couple of you have mentioned this. I'll also measure the distance from the shoulder seam when I get home tonight. Lastly, regarding the ribbons... no idea. Again, not familiar with AAF awards and the like. I can say that I've had plenty of USMC ribbon bars with too many stars (for example three stars on a PUC) and some with none where there should have been. Heck, I never got around to mounting the other stars on my Iraqi Service medal before I retired and all my ribbon bars still have just the one star where there should be two more. Perhaps this guy didn't worry about his European Campaign medal but wanted everyone to know he got two DFCs and all the Air Medals haha. Regardless, I bought it as a representative display piece and am pretty happy with it. It's just got a great look. I just hope I haven't unwittingly started collecting AAF items... Yikes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted September 15, 2014 Share #22 Posted September 15, 2014 Thanks to everyone for the info and insight. I'll be happy to take a close up of the RAF wings this evening to aid in the discussion. Regarding the large size, it's still a wartime originally made uniform so obviously there were people of this size then. I'm sure they were in a minority based on most of the surviving uniforms (small sizes) I've seen in my previous collecting. I don't know the dimensions of a Spitfire cockpit, but I do have a USMC aviator grouping to a guy who was every bit as tall as this gent and flew in a corsair. It looks like this guy was 8th AF. Was that primarily a bomber squadron? Would it make sense that a bomber pilot would have seen service with the RAF? The suggestion that this was used by a reenactor seems less likely due to the fact that it was obviously cut down from a four pocket into an "Ike" sometime during the war. Not saying that it couldn't have been used for that purpose later on, but that someone obviously wore this during the war. I can't find a 'ghost' of any previous patches on the sleeves and the ribbons and DUIs all look to have been there for a long, long time. Also, the stitching is all black light neg and using pre 1946 cotton thread would seem a lot of trouble to go to for someone who was going to use it to reenact or for a hangar dance. Also not to mention that if they had that kind of attention to detail, why mount the patches lower than regulations required? By the way, does anyone know what the regs were? A couple of you have mentioned this. I'll also measure the distance from the shoulder seam when I get home tonight. Lastly, regarding the ribbons... no idea. Again, not familiar with AAF awards and the like. I can say that I've had plenty of USMC ribbon bars with too many stars (for example three stars on a PUC) and some with none where there should have been. Heck, I never got around to mounting the other stars on my Iraqi Service medal before I retired and all my ribbon bars still have just the one star where there should be two more. Perhaps this guy didn't worry about his European Campaign medal but wanted everyone to know he got two DFCs and all the Air Medals haha. Regardless, I bought it as a representative display piece and am pretty happy with it. It's just got a great look. I just hope I haven't unwittingly started collecting AAF items... Yikes. Duward: A few comments on your post. First, the size is okay. True, most of the guys back then were pretty small, but there were some larger guys (ironically, I'm not that big of a guy and I wear a size 44...at least I don't think of myself as that big of a guy...because there are plenty larger out there!) I've seen legit uniforms in the mid-to-larger 40-range for pilots/aircrew. Unusual, yes. Impossible, no. My comments on size were based on the fact that people have wanted to dress up as "Eagle Squadron" guys (note, not all guys with RAF wings were in the Eagle Squadrons...in fact, they were a small minority...) for years. In fact, when I was about 18, I made up a uniform with a proper sized RAF wing (the 3/4 size, as commonly seen worn by ES vets...ran me about $350 out of pocket even back then!) with all the other fun stuff on it (bullion 8th, etc...) I wore it to the Great Western show once. I honestly have no idea what happened to the uniform, but I know I didn't have it as of the mid 90s...so I assume I sold it to someone. Unfortunately, I never clearly marked it as a reenactor uniform (especially with everything being genuine on it) and I'm sure the story of me building it to wear to the GW show probably ended with the first or second owner after I sold it. So, there's a really nice reenactor-sized "Eagle Squadron" uniform out there somewhere...that I should have stripped before I sold it (but that was over 20 years ago and we weren't as savvy back then as we are now!!!) As far as the regulation for distance, I believe it was 1" from the top seam, but I'm going off memory. It's written down somewhere... I don't mind the ribbons all too much, and they are nice ones, worth a pretty penny in their own right. Just my thoughts. Still an eye-catching uniform though! Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AAF_Collection Posted September 15, 2014 Share #23 Posted September 15, 2014 It's an interesting uniform. Apart from the slightly odd placement of the SSI, I can't say I see anything really wrong, and there were certainly American't serving in other branches of the RAF, not just Fighter Command. I wouldn't let the size be too much of a concern, and as Ricardo said, the full size RAF wings are not a huge issue. It's just a shame it's not ID'd. Matt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doyler Posted September 15, 2014 Share #24 Posted September 15, 2014 I agree with Dave. As he stated not all those who wore the RAF wing were eagle Squadron.I have a uniform from a D.Leaf.He wore the small wing over the right pocket as well.He was later KIA while a P47 pilot.He is buried in Margratten Holland.His uniform came out of the family estate.There was also his British Battle jacket and trousers.He wore just the USA titles on it but others assumed he was in the Eagle Squadron.I spoke to the Association president and he confirmed that Leaf had been in a fighter replacement pool at Tangmire later assiged to the 4th fighter Group as a AAC pilot.There were several of his uniform articles but it got got split at the auction.The RAF uniform and one Air Corps uniform were later sold at a military auction. I am trying to research another uniform with RAF wing.The piliot was at Pearl Harbor and was listed as a Silver Star reciepiant. Also is the campaign star silver on the EAME ribbon?Just curious as its not showing up clearly ann I hanve seen silver campaign stars with the finish wash that has came off in areas. Thanks RD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KurtA Posted September 15, 2014 Share #25 Posted September 15, 2014 I think the large size is actually a postitive indication this could be original. Large size jackets can get big bucks with nothing on them. As put-together artists try to get the most $$$ out of their creations, it wouldn't seem to make sense to use such a "valuable" jacket rather than a low value size 36. But, that one characteristic alone is certainly not enough to make a call on this one. I see some things I like and some things I don't; none of which enable me to come to a conclusion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now