BROBS Posted September 5, 2014 Share #1 Posted September 5, 2014 I got this rig and a fully numbers matching (bolt too!) BCD 4 (Gustloffwerke 1944) K98 that needs cleaned up. Apparently the guy as a kid decided to start to sand the stock with the receiver in, so with a little cleaning it will be fine. The rust haze on the pistol blue will clean off as well but this is how I got it. This pistol was captured at the end of the war from a German officer (turning himself in) by the seller's father. Apparently this man's father was a captain in the Rainbow Division and received first pick of the captures. He picked this one and you can tell this rig must have really seen the war. The pistol was probably purchased when this officer was a NCO and he kept it until the end of the war ... the holster is eue42... and marked with Uffz. Br. (Unteroffizier Braun?) So either the guy was a NCO at the end or had been field promoted to Officer? I got the seller's dad's name, so research can be done. Family lived and lives in Independence, IA. Here are the photos: Thanks for looking! [/color] - Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doyler Posted September 5, 2014 Share #2 Posted September 5, 2014 Nice score Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BROBS Posted September 5, 2014 Author Share #3 Posted September 5, 2014 Thanks Ron... just got really lucky! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doyler Posted September 5, 2014 Share #4 Posted September 5, 2014 Thanks Ron... just got really lucky! Send some my way!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
USdog Posted September 5, 2014 Share #5 Posted September 5, 2014 Really nice pistol. I've been looking for a nice bring back pistol... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BROBS Posted September 5, 2014 Author Share #6 Posted September 5, 2014 I'll light some incense and say a mantra to the collecting gods for you this evening... Let me know if it helps! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
USdog Posted September 5, 2014 Share #7 Posted September 5, 2014 Will do lol. Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timberwolf Posted September 5, 2014 Share #8 Posted September 5, 2014 Nice P-38! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
USCapturephotos Posted September 5, 2014 Share #9 Posted September 5, 2014 Nice. Thanks for sharing. I would def be interested in knowing which regiment in the 42nd Rainbow Division your soldier was from as I have several pieces brought back by the 42nd, have been to a few of their reunions etc. Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BROBS Posted September 5, 2014 Author Share #10 Posted September 5, 2014 Sending PM to you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeff arthur Posted September 5, 2014 Share #11 Posted September 5, 2014 Brian,nice score ! I am curious,how did you come to find out about it ? did they put an ad. in the newspaper ? word of mouth ? my Mother's Dad brought back a NICKEL PLATED Luger that he sold in 1962 for $75.00... Oh , if only a guy could turn back the clock ! Regards, Jeff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lugar05 Posted September 7, 2014 Share #12 Posted September 7, 2014 Hi, does this p38 have AC / CYQ or any other manuf markings this gun looks commercial just my 2 cents, it is a very nice gun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BROBS Posted September 9, 2014 Author Share #13 Posted September 9, 2014 That's what I said in the title and first post..... lower ranks and even NCO's were not issued pistols, so they purchased firearms that were serviceable to their armorer. -Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldabewla Posted September 10, 2014 Share #14 Posted September 10, 2014 Hey Brian, I can see and tell you that it is the banner type p38 which they were done only in 1939 by walther and are the (HP series) Heerespistole which 25,000 pistols were made for commercial market and 1500 more went to the Swedish Army under the markings M39 serial number 1000-2500 In 1940 Walther came up with code marked (zero series ) them the (480 series) and then the last (AC) code series for Walthers threw the WWII production P38's The banner marked slides did a came back post war and again yours looks to be the early type HP series done in 1939? Here is what you should check out and how they are marked for WWII Walther production http://www.pistole38.nl/p38-variations.html Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SFMike Posted September 10, 2014 Share #15 Posted September 10, 2014 Pistols like P 38s or Lugers were not issued by rank, but 1st by job or assignment, Lower EMs and NCOs were amongst the 1st issued sidearms. Crew served weapons people, armored troops, admin, and others whose primary job was not behind a rifle. One might even be assigned to a detail where only a pistol was required and a temporary issue might be in order. Up to about 1917, Lugers were unit marked down to thye individual piece. Many officers purchased sidearms and you see some pics with both pistols and SMGs. This P 38 is nice and unusual. The holster could have been added at any time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BROBS Posted September 10, 2014 Author Share #16 Posted September 10, 2014 Craig.. I'm pretty sure the HP series was produced until 1945 in parallel to the p38 Wehrmacht... with the same changes in finish and quality. The link says production started in 1939... not that it was limited to 1939. You can tell this is an early war piece by the high polish blue finish. SFMike.. what do you mean the holster could have been added at any time? I believe the man's dad's story that he took the whole rig from a captured soldier.. the same with the rifle. IF they had been picked up after all the weapons were captured, the bolt on the rifle would be a mismatch (which it isn't) as they usually threw the rifles in one pile and bolts in another. Then the GI could grab the rifle grab a bolt and have a souvinir. And where are you getting this info about TR pistol issuing? -Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timberwolf Posted September 10, 2014 Share #17 Posted September 10, 2014 Brian, I too have heard this about the issuing of sidearms in the German military in WWII. When I used to reenact I did German, and was told unless you were an NCO or an MG gunner that you couldn't have a side arm. Not that I'm saying it didn't happen but I think that must have been the official Wermacht guidelines for side arm issuing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BROBS Posted September 10, 2014 Author Share #18 Posted September 10, 2014 Well I think that is sort of an "urban legend" or perhaps a "reenacting legend" if you will. It is very tough to find real info but this echos the way I understood it and comes directly from printed documents. excerpt from link below: Who was issued a pistol in the German Army? Contrary to popular belief, Officers of the Wehrmacht were not usually issued pistols though some were authorized an issue pistol at the company level. The vast majority of German pistols were issued to Non-Commissioned Officers (NCOs) and enlisted men. Officers were authorized to carry a pistol but they were purchased privately by officers and were personally owned, not the property of the German Wehrmacht. The following is a couple of examples of what typical German Kreigsstaerkenachweisung (KStN, Table of organization and equipment)dictates for issuance of pistols. I selected a couple of examples from different types of companies at different times during the war to illustrate who may have been issued a pistol. The German OKW designated the following personnel to be issued pistols: Schuetzen-kompanie (Light Infantry) (from 1941 dated document) Company Headquartes: 4 (1 for the Commander, 3 for the anti-tank riflemen) First Platoon: 12 (Platoon Leader, Platoon Sergeant, 4 machine gunners, 4 machine gunners assistants, mortar gunner, and mortar gunner assistant) Second Platoon: 10 (Platoon Leader, Platoon Sergeant, 4 machine gunners, 4 machine gunners assistants) Third Platoon: 10 (Platoon Leader, Platoon Sergeant, 4 machine gunners, 4 machine gunners assistants) Combat Support: 7 (Chief Sergeant, Medical Sergeant, 4 stretcher bearers, weapons-master, weapons-master helper) Total: 43 Schuetzen-kompanie (Light Infantry) (from 1944 dated document) (interesting to see how the composition of light infantry changed in just 3 years) Company Headquartes: 1 for the Commander First Platoon: 5 (Platoon Leader, stretcher bearer, 3 machine gunners) Second Platoon: 5 (Platoon Leader, stretcher bearer, 3 machine gunners) Third Platoon: 5 (Platoon Leader, stretcher bearer, 3 machine gunners) Heavy Machinegun Group: 4 (2 Machine gunners, 2 machine gunners assistants) Total: 22 Grenadierkompanie (Infantry) (from 1944 dated document) Medical Sergeant: 1 Stretcher Bearers: 2 Machine gunners: 8 Total: 11 Stab eines Infanteriebataillons (Infantry Battalion Staff) (from 1943 dated document) Battalion Commander: 1 Adjutant: 1 Admin Officer: 1 Medical Sergeant: 1 Support Section: (2 Civilians, 1 Machine Gunner) schwere Panzerjagerkompanie-12Geschuetze (12 gun medium anti-tank companie (from 1943 dated document) Company Commander: 1 Observation Officer: 1 First Platoon: 14 (Platoon Leader, Observation Officer, 4 machine gunners, 4 tank gunners, 4 tank gunner assistants) Second Platoon: 14 (Platoon Leader, Observation Officer, 4 machine gunners, 4 tank gunners, 4 tank gunner assistants) Third Platoon: 14 (Platoon Leader, Observation Officer, 4 machine gunners, 4 tank gunners, 4 tank gunner assistants) Supply Sergeant: 1 Combat Support: 5 (Chief Sergeant, Medical Sergeant, weapons-master, weapons-master helper x2) Total:50 Fliegerbwehrkompanie (air defense company) (from 1944 dated document) Company Commander: 1 Medical Sergeant: 1 First Platoon: 7 (Platoon Leader, rangefinders x2, AA Gunners x4) Second Platoon: 7 (Platoon Leader, rangefinders x2, AA Gunners x4) Third Platoon: 7 (Platoon Leader, rangefinders x2, AA Gunners x4) Combat Support: 3 (Chief Sergeant, Supply Sergeant, weapons sergeant) Total:26 Batterie leichte Feldhaubitzen zu 4 Geschuetze (4 gun light field howitzer company (from 1945 dated document) Company Headquarters: 4 (Telescope Sergeant, aiming circle sergeants x2, machine gunner) Gun Section: 4 (Farrier, Medical Sergeant, machine gunners x2) Combat Support: 3 (Farrier, forgemaster, stableman) Total: 11 Pionierkompanie (Engineer Company) (from 1944 dated document) Company Headquarters: 4 (Company Commander, Medical Sergeant) First Platoon: 8 (Platoon Leader, anti-tank rifleman, machine gunners x3, assistant machine gunners x3) Second Platoon: 8 (Platoon Leader, anti-tank rifleman, machine gunners x3, assistant machine gunners x3) Third Platoon: 8 (Platoon Leader, anti-tank rifleman, machine gunners x3, assistant machine gunners x3) Heavy Machine Gun Group: 5 (Leader, 2 Machine gunners, 2 machine gunners assistants) Mortar Group: 8 (2 launcher leader, launcher crew x6) Supply Sergeant: 1 Total: 42 Sanitaetkompanie (Medical Company) (from 1944 dated document) Company Headquarters: 2 (Pharmacist [civilian], 1’st Sergeant) Communications Group:1 (Telephone Sergeant) First Platoon: 3 (Medical Officers x2, Medical Sergeant) Second Platoon: 3 (Medical Officers x2, Medical Sergeant) Third Platoon: 3 (Medical Officers x2, Medical Sergeant) Fourth Platoon: 2 (Chief Medical Sergeant, Weapons Helper) Paymaster: 1 leichte Panzerkompanie (Light Tank Company) (from 1941 dated document) Headquarters: 25 (1 Company Commander, 24 “other tank crew members”) First Platoon: 25 (5 tank commanders, 5 NCO right gunners, 5 NCO drivers, 5 radio men/loaders, 5 main gunners) Second Platoon: 25 (5 tank commanders, 5 NCO right gunners, 5 NCO drivers, 5 radio men/loaders, 5 main gunners) Third Platoon: 25 (5 tank commanders, 5 NCO right gunners, 5 NCO drivers, 5 radio men/loaders, 5 main gunners) Combat Support: 9 (Chief Sergeant, Supply Sergeant, Radio Sergeant, Weapons Sergeant, Medical Sergeant, stretcher bearer, Weapons Master Sergeant, 2 weapons master assistants) Combat Support 2: 14 (4 NCOs, 10 rotating tank crew members) Total: 123 schwere Panzerkompanie (Heavy Tank Company) (from 1943 dated document) Headquarters: 10 (1 Company Commander, 9 “other tank crew members”) First Platoon: 20 (5 tank commanders, 5 NCO right gunners, 5 NCO drivers, 5 radio men/loaders) Second Platoon: 20 (5 tank commanders, 5 NCO right gunners, 5 NCO drivers, 5 radio men/loaders) Third Platoon: 20 (5 tank commanders, 5 NCO right gunners, 5 NCO drivers, 5 radio men/loaders) Maintenance Group: 10 (Maintenance Sergeants x3, Weapons Master Sergeant, 2 weapons master assistants, 4 rotating tank crew members) Combat Support: 9 (Chief Sergeant, Supply Sergeant, Radio Sergeant, Weapons Sergeant, weapons master, weapons master helpers x3, stretcher bearer) Original info: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BROBS Posted September 10, 2014 Author Share #19 Posted September 10, 2014 So I was wrong and this may have been an Officer's pistol which would make sense with the story the man's father told him! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldabewla Posted September 10, 2014 Share #20 Posted September 10, 2014 Craig.. I'm pretty sure the HP series was produced until 1945 in parallel to the p38 Wehrmacht... with the same changes in finish and quality. The link says production started in 1939... not that it was limited to 1939. You can tell this is an early war piece by the high polish blue finish. SFMike.. what do you mean the holster could have been added at any time? I believe the man's dad's story that he took the whole rig from a captured soldier.. the same with the rifle. IF they had been picked up after all the weapons were captured, the bolt on the rifle would be a mismatch (which it isn't) as they usually threw the rifles in one pile and bolts in another. Then the GI could grab the rifle grab a bolt and have a souvinir. And where are you getting this info about TR pistol issuing? -Brian Brian, Hp's were only made in 1939 read the chart. Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1st Sgt CES Posted October 18, 2014 Share #21 Posted October 18, 2014 Great Find !!!! I like it a lot---Blue Skies Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
27Division18 Posted October 25, 2014 Share #22 Posted October 25, 2014 Outstanding Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gomorgan Posted October 25, 2014 Share #23 Posted October 25, 2014 I like it Brian now bring it and the K-98 to next get together so I can look them over...George Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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