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Examples of Fake Fantasy & Reproduction Wings


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#26 pfrost

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Posted 06 September 2008 - 02:06 PM

Everybody can make a mistake and this is one of my worst and most expensive errors. I had saved up a good chunk of change and wanted to buy myself a nice WWI wing. Went to the Great Western and had it narrowed down to a nice IDed bullion junior aviator with a photo of the guy wearing the wing or this one. The thing was, the dealer with the good wing was kind of rude, while the guy with the balloon wing was a real nice fellow....

My point is that you can see in the last 3-4 fake wings on this thread that they all look like they came from the same person.

Patrick

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  • balloonfake.jpg


#27 cwnorma

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Posted 06 September 2008 - 02:58 PM

Not mine, but here are some more from this maker:

69950_6388_1_W.jpg
69950_6390_1_W.jpg
69950_6389_1_W.jpg
post_503_1217531112.jpg




Photos came from the www.

#28 none

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Posted 09 September 2008 - 06:22 PM

Not mine, but here are some more from this maker:

69950_6388_1_W.jpg
69950_6390_1_W.jpg
69950_6389_1_W.jpg
post_503_1217531112.jpg

Photos came from the www.


These wings were originally designed and made by a Phoenix, AZ tool and die maker names sounds like PayCheck, also some of them are hallmarked LeBreve. He is the one who started the LeBreve hallmark. Many people believe LeBreve is real -I found out recently it never existed.

#29 phillydude

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Posted 16 September 2008 - 05:17 PM

This piece of junk sold for over $700......

ACTUALLY , $1000.00

#30 bobgee

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Posted 20 September 2008 - 10:36 AM

The center shield is from a Meyer and Wenthe WWI wing which is one of the more reproduced wings around. You can tell by the "US" in the shield. That mis-shape US is from their wing. I have enclosed a picture of the Meyer & Wenthe wing, it's one of my reproductions. How can you tell a real M&W, look at the back and it the hallmark is in a circle of the words Meyer & Wenthe and also says Chicago its real, if only sterling is it a reproduction.

The cloth is incorrect for the era.


I've had this Meyer & Wenthe hallmarked piece for a while and have had different opinions as to its authenticity. It has a ball-type, tuck-in catch and the pin opens a full 180 degrees. If bad I thought it might be one of Mr. ***************'s productions but his remarks suggest otherwise. Comments?
Thanks....Bobgee

MW_WWI_Wing_obv.JPG MW_WWI_Wing_Rev.JPG
MW_WWI_Wing_Rev_CU_HM.JPG

#31 crazy-monsooner

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Posted 20 September 2008 - 05:35 PM

From my view, this is a fake wing.

#32 bobgee

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Posted 21 September 2008 - 05:36 AM

From my view, this is a fake wing.


What brings you to this conclusion? I never have seen another Meyer & Wenthe HM'd wing. That's why I picked it up. Comments? Thanks..
Bobgee

#33 cwnorma

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Posted 21 September 2008 - 08:44 AM

What brings you to this conclusion? I never have seen another Meyer & Wenthe HM'd wing. That's why I picked it up. Comments? Thanks..
Bobgee

Bob,

Here are my thoughts and a few questions about this wing:

I can see right away that it is not a Joe *************** piece.

It may be the light, or the way you took the photo, but there appears to be a slight pillowing to the back around the edges (which would lead me to think that it is a casting). A slightly oblique photo of the back might be more revealing.

On the other hand, the front appears to have very crisp details.

The US appears to be separately applied (a good sign)

Campbell states that the Meyer and Wenthe wing has a recurve to it like an archer's bow. Yours appears flat (could just be the picture)? Of course, never having studied a real one, I am not exactly sure what Campbell was getting at.

I have never handled a known good Meyer and Wenthe, so the questions that come to my mind are:

What type of hardware is expected on a real Meyer and Wenthe?

Are the US on a real one gold or yellow alloy?

Is the hallmark incised or raised?

I can say, I would probably have picked it up too. I am just too ignorant of this particular pattern to even begin to make a call.

Chris

Edited by cwnorma, 21 September 2008 - 08:45 AM.


#34 pfrost

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Posted 25 September 2008 - 08:19 AM

These are a tough wing to call. I have looked at this particular wing with the Meyer and Wenthe hallmark (or its twin) a number of times over the years. The fact that these wings were being sold each time by guys who were well known peddlers of fakes, didnt help. Each time, it was the hardware and the back that turned me away from these wings.

On the other hand, examples of this pattern wing can be seen in Campbell's and (IIRC) Morris' book, and do sometimes show up in other collections with better provenance.

A few years ago, I came across this wing. Since the price was right and I was able to carefully examine it, I went ahead and got them. I think mine are good...but I am not willing to argue too forcefully in their defense. Basically, I like them and they are for me and my collection. A few of the really smart collectors I interact with have mixed opinions about these.

However, it is worth spending a few moments talking about this wing.

This one was on a large canvas wallet that had 4-5 WWI vintage RAF and USAAC manuals, a WWI vintage diary, a French/German/English dictionary and a WWI pilot snap shot. Clearly, the books and paperwork and the canvas wallet had all lived together for many years and the wallet had taken on the shape of the books. Also, while their was no clear ID, the writting and notes in the books and the back of the snapshot all were in the same hand.

Pinned on the inside cover of the wallet was this wing. The brass part of the catch and pin had begun to get that green verdigris deposit (as you can see on the back of the wing) and had welded the wing to the wallet. I had to actually use a pair of pliers to open the catch. Clearly the wing had been on the wallet for many many years. To be honest, that was the final selling point, was that I was 100% convinced that this wing had been on that wallet for well over 50-60 years. That, and the rest of the items in the wallet were worth more together than what I paid for the whole thing....basically the wing was free!

The wing itself is "pickled" like you frequently see with WWI insignia to give it that kind of deep brown patina. It is actually sterling silver, but has been chemically treated to give it that brownish finish. I have never seen a wing treated like that, to be honest. The wing is clearly die struck and has a lots of detail. Lots of gunk and grime has accumulated around the area of the shield. The US looks to be copper or brass, and may have once been gold plated, but that has been worn off. Most people seem to focus on the crudeness of the US, but careful examination of the ones shown in Campbell's book indicate they have the same style.

On the back, you can see the line of verdegris from the pin and catch. The wing itself has a small hallmark in the center of an H over an R with the back leg of the H froming the front part of the R. The recess of both the hallmark and the sterling mark are also pickled, so I believe that the pickling was done after the strike.

The wing has some slight vaulting to it, but isnt as "curved-like an archers bow" as described in Campbell's book.

This is one of those wings you kind of have to decide for yourself. Someone is always going to have another opinion.

Patrick

Attached Images

  • WWIwing2.jpg

Edited by pfrost, 25 September 2008 - 08:23 AM.


#35 pfrost

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Posted 25 September 2008 - 08:53 AM

Sadly, they all cant be this easy to tell the good from the bad....

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  • WWIwings.jpg


#36 Gary Cain

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Posted 25 September 2008 - 11:03 AM

Joe,

Many thanks for the information on this! I had been told the maker lived in Utah but was never able to track him down. Now with this info I will hopefully be able to track him down and get examples of all of his work for a fakes data base.


Cheers!

Gary

These wings were originally designed and made by a Phoenix, AZ tool and die maker names sounds like PayCheck, also some of them are hallmarked LeBreve. He is the one who started the LeBreve hallmark. Many people believe LeBreve is real -I found out recently it never existed.



#37 packratt713

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Posted 29 September 2008 - 12:59 PM

I'm going to have to look again at my wings. I learned some ne http://www.usmilitar...tyle_emoticons/default/think.gif w things today

What to watch for: Examples of fake/reproduction Wings

Forum members, I am starting this thread as a reference for collectors of all levels, as a place to post pictures and give tips on reproduction wings, Please post!

I will get this one started myself, with a current wing I pulled from eBay.

Thanks,

Paul


Looks like another Meyer restrike......



Surprise!



#38 none

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Posted 17 October 2008 - 04:28 PM

I've had this Meyer & Wenthe hallmarked piece for a while and have had different opinions as to its authenticity. It has a ball-type, tuck-in catch and the pin opens a full 180 degrees. If bad I thought it might be one of Mr. ***************'s productions but his remarks suggest otherwise. Comments?
Thanks....Bobgee

MW_WWI_Wing_obv.JPG MW_WWI_Wing_Rev.JPG
MW_WWI_Wing_Rev_CU_HM.JPG



This is a real wing.

Joe

#39 none

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Posted 17 October 2008 - 04:32 PM

These are a tough wing to call. I have looked at this particular wing with the Meyer and Wenthe hallmark (or its twin) a number of times over the years. The fact that these wings were being sold each time by guys who were well known peddlers of fakes, didnt help. Each time, it was the hardware and the back that turned me away from these wings.

On the other hand, examples of this pattern wing can be seen in Campbell's and (IIRC) Morris' book, and do sometimes show up in other collections with better provenance.

A few years ago, I came across this wing. Since the price was right and I was able to carefully examine it, I went ahead and got them. I think mine are good...but I am not willing to argue too forcefully in their defense. Basically, I like them and they are for me and my collection. A few of the really smart collectors I interact with have mixed opinions about these.

However, it is worth spending a few moments talking about this wing.

This one was on a large canvas wallet that had 4-5 WWI vintage RAF and USAAC manuals, a WWI vintage diary, a French/German/English dictionary and a WWI pilot snap shot. Clearly, the books and paperwork and the canvas wallet had all lived together for many years and the wallet had taken on the shape of the books. Also, while their was no clear ID, the writting and notes in the books and the back of the snapshot all were in the same hand.

Pinned on the inside cover of the wallet was this wing. The brass part of the catch and pin had begun to get that green verdigris deposit (as you can see on the back of the wing) and had welded the wing to the wallet. I had to actually use a pair of pliers to open the catch. Clearly the wing had been on the wallet for many many years. To be honest, that was the final selling point, was that I was 100% convinced that this wing had been on that wallet for well over 50-60 years. That, and the rest of the items in the wallet were worth more together than what I paid for the whole thing....basically the wing was free!

The wing itself is "pickled" like you frequently see with WWI insignia to give it that kind of deep brown patina. It is actually sterling silver, but has been chemically treated to give it that brownish finish. I have never seen a wing treated like that, to be honest. The wing is clearly die struck and has a lots of detail. Lots of gunk and grime has accumulated around the area of the shield. The US looks to be copper or brass, and may have once been gold plated, but that has been worn off. Most people seem to focus on the crudeness of the US, but careful examination of the ones shown in Campbell's book indicate they have the same style.

On the back, you can see the line of verdegris from the pin and catch. The wing itself has a small hallmark in the center of an H over an R with the back leg of the H froming the front part of the R. The recess of both the hallmark and the sterling mark are also pickled, so I believe that the pickling was done after the strike.

The wing has some slight vaulting to it, but isnt as "curved-like an archers bow" as described in Campbell's book.

This is one of those wings you kind of have to decide for yourself. Someone is always going to have another opinion.

Patrick


This is not a real M&W. As I have stated before it is one of the most reproducted wings around other than the WWI Meyer. I can make any of the coloring, brown, gray, black or even green. So forget if a wing is darkened. It's all in the toolbox of someone who wants to be a crook.

Joe

#40 CliffP

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Posted 17 November 2008 - 09:04 PM

An interesting example of how puzzling the hobby of wing badge collecting is becoming:

While hardly a surprise for any regular member of this forum, copies are now being made of ... a fake WW1 Bombing Military Aviator wing badge that was originally designed and made for the purpose of deceiving the unsuspecting buyer. The seller now offering this 'reproduction of a fake badge' http://www.usmilitar...tyle_emoticons/default/think.gif on eBay, item number 370111875931, describes it as being a 'museum quality reproduction' very similar to one in the Terry Morris book on page 13, when in fact it is a 'museum quality reproduction' of a fake badge. :blink:

Confusing ain't it!! :lol:

Attached Images

  • FakeWW1BMA.jpg

Edited by CliffP, 17 November 2008 - 09:10 PM.


#41 pfrost

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Posted 25 November 2008 - 02:47 PM

Currently being offered on ebay. It's construction is, shall we say; "unique":

http://cgi.ebay.com/...emZ160253521147


Bonus for the first person who recognizes what this was originally made from.


Here is another POS based on this fake being peddled on ebay. A quick search of ebay this AM showed up a number of fake-olas.

These are the best pictures they have.

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  • d6dc_1.JPG
  • d681_1.JPG

Edited by pfrost, 25 November 2008 - 02:49 PM.


#42 CliffP

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Posted 16 December 2008 - 11:46 AM

Here is an interesting WW1 wing badge currently being offer on the Internet for only $1750.00.

At first glance it looks like a Dan Dunham design and is truly inspiring; however, a closer look will reveal many imperfections. Yes, it's sad to say so but this is a cast reproduction which was first offered eight years ago at a large West Coast auction house before being pulled at the last minute.

Caveat Emptor! http://www.usmilitar...tyle_emoticons/default/crying.gif

Attached Images

  • Fake_badge_1750.jpg

Edited by CliffP, 16 December 2008 - 11:52 AM.


#43 IMPERIAL QUEST

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Posted 16 December 2008 - 12:38 PM

An interesting example of how puzzling the hobby of wing badge collecting is becoming:

While hardly a surprise for any regular member of this forum, copies are now being made of ... a fake WW1 Bombing Military Aviator wing badge that was originally designed and made for the purpose of deceiving the unsuspecting buyer. The seller now offering this 'reproduction of a fake badge' http://www.usmilitar...tyle_emoticons/default/think.gif on eBay, item number 370111875931, describes it as being a 'museum quality reproduction' very similar to one in the Terry Morris book on page 13, when in fact it is a 'museum quality reproduction' of a fake badge. :blink:

Confusing ain't it!! :lol:


Hi Cliff,

I don't have the book in front of me, but I saw two examples of the bomber wing in J.D.C's book. I read only briefly about the bomber wing, so please correct me if I am wrong. What I gathered is that it was definitely unofficial, but that therewere a few examples made by jewelers at the request of aviation personnel of the period...seems like it had something to do with Ellington Field. Am I "off target" :rolleyes: ?

#44 CliffP

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Posted 16 December 2008 - 04:32 PM

Hi Cliff,

I don't have the book in front of me, but I saw two examples of the bomber wing in J.D.C's book. I read only briefly about the bomber wing, so please correct me if I am wrong. What I gathered is that it was definitely unofficial, but that therewere a few examples made by jewelers at the request of aviation personnel of the period...seems like it had something to do with Ellington Field. Am I "off target" :rolleyes: ?


Hi Steve,

You are closer to being "on target" in that all Bombing Military Aviators received their training at Ellington Field, TX. http://www.usmilitar...tyle_emoticons/default/thumbsup.gif

In his book, Duncan Campbell is quoted as saying about the BMA badge, "although such badges were unauthorized," however, keep in mind that the first draft for that book was written in 1972, five years before it was finally published. Since then more information has surfaced about those badges and if Duncan rewrote the book today he might rephrase that statement by saying, "no official Bulletin or Order has been found to confirm that such badges were authorized."

By the way, there were at least five makers of the badge; Dan S. Dunham, J. C. Caldwell & Company, one unknown company which used a backmark that had a letter "S" inside a shield (see #44 in Duncan's book), another unknown company with no backmark (see #43 in the book), and one other unknown company with no backmark which is a confirmed biographical badge in a private collection. Phew!!!!!!!

Cheers,

Cliff ;)

#45 IMPERIAL QUEST

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Posted 16 December 2008 - 05:01 PM

Hi Steve,

You are closer to being "on target" in that all Bombing Military Aviators received their training at Ellington Field, TX. http://www.usmilitar...tyle_emoticons/default/thumbsup.gif

In his book, Duncan Campbell is quoted as saying about the BMA badge, "although such badges were unauthorized," however, keep in mind that the first draft for that book was written in 1972, five years before it was finally published. Since then more information has surfaced about those badges and if Duncan rewrote the book today he might rephrase that statement by saying, "no official Bulletin or Order has been found to confirm that such badges were authorized."

By the way, there were at least five makers of the badge; Dan S. Dunham, J. C. Caldwell & Company, one unknown company which used a backmark that had a letter "S" inside a shield (see #44 in Duncan's book), another unknown company with no backmark (see #43 in the book), and one other unknown company with no backmark which is a confirmed biographical badge in a private collection. Phew!!!!!!!

Cheers,

Cliff ;)


Cliff,

Thanks for the information. It is a real treat to have someone who was involved to some degree with the creation of this book as your insights are invaluable. I had no idea that the book was written 5 years before publication! Thanks for the inside scoop.

Steve

#46 CliffP

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Posted 16 December 2008 - 10:25 PM

I had no idea that the book was written 5 years before publication!


Hi Steve,

Oh yes, the first draft for Duncan's book was finished in 1972; however, he continued to make revisions until he was finally happy with it in 1977.

Cheers,
Cliff

#47 Paul C.

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Posted 17 December 2008 - 06:05 AM

Guys,

I love this thread! I was wondering if we might also start posting some more common fakes. I love the WWI stuff , but I was hoping to also help beginning to intermediate wing collectors ID the crap out there.

Thanks and Happy Holidays!

Paul

Breakfast.jpg

#48 CliffP

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Posted 30 December 2008 - 08:29 PM

Guys,

I love this thread! I was wondering if we might also start posting some more common fakes. I love the WWI stuff , but I was hoping to also help beginning to intermediate wing collectors ID the crap out there.

Thanks and Happy Holidays!

Paul


Paul,

Here is something about some fake US Airborne wings posted at the bottom of the website below:

Reproductions & Fakes - U.S. Airborne & Elite Unit Insignia by Les Hughes
http://www.insigne.org/Fakes-I-Abn.htm
http://www.insigne.o.../Gaunt-fake.jpg

#49 pfrost

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Posted 02 January 2009 - 10:43 AM

Here is a fun one that is currently on ebay.

So many things wrong! The guy just cant help himself.

Not content with making a fake cast wing, he adds a hallmark that is rarely seen with USN wing (Norsid NYC). He then further adds another hallmark for 14(?)K rolled gold on BZ (bronze?). Then, he adds a date, just so you aren't confused as to vintage of the thing. He has a whole series of these that he likes to peddle that I have on my website as examples of "fakes" ( http://pfrost.bol.uc...akegallery.html )

Attached Images

  • fce2_1_sbl.JPG

Edited by pfrost, 02 January 2009 - 10:46 AM.


#50 Paul C.

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Posted 12 January 2009 - 06:40 AM

Here is a fun one that is currently on eBay.

So many things wrong! The guy just cant help himself.

Not content with making a fake cast wing, he adds a hallmark that is rarely seen with USN wing (Norsid NYC). He then further adds another hallmark for 14(?)K rolled gold on BZ (bronze?). Then, he adds a date, just so you aren't confused as to vintage of the thing. He has a whole series of these that he likes to peddle that I have on my website as examples of "fakes" ( http://pfrost.bol.uc...akegallery.html )



Oh yes, I think I saw this one, and he has others. He seems to have 3 stamp sets, to block and one script here is an example where he uses all three on an obviously cast fantasy wing, currently listed. What really sad this that people buy this crap! I hadn't seen your fake gallery in a while, nice! I think I have saved a few more of his/their really bad ones , I'll see if I can dig them up.
2e2f_1_sbl.jpg

Edited by Paul C., 12 January 2009 - 06:44 AM.



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