Misfit 45 Posted July 28, 2014 Share #1 Posted July 28, 2014 Hi Folks, I have been noticing that some of the later M8A1 scabbards do not have a "fringe cover", the strap of material that covers the bottom of the webbing where it attaches to the scabbard throat. I also learned that this is not an oversight or a damaged piece. Bayonet points suggests that TWB marked scabbards came out about 1969. All the TWB scabbards (I have observed) lack the fringe cover. Then I took a look at the PWH marked scabbards. These scabbards come in three flavors: Small, Large, and Wide. I looked at my own collection (not too many) and noticed that the Wide P W H scabbards also lack the fringe cover. Then I went on ebay and looked at dozens of M8A1 scabbards. This confirmed that the Wide P W H scabbards and the TWB scabbards ALL lack this fringe cover. All the small PWH scabbards included the fringe covers. The Large PWH scabbards (not in my picture) were another story. All but one of the large PWH scabbards observed, did not have the cover. I guess it would be safe to say MOST, but not all of the large PWH scabbards lack this fringe cover. Conclusion: IF your M8A1 scabbard does not have a fringe cover, it is likely post 1969. Any other observations or comments (corrections)? Thanks. Marv The scabbard on the left is the small PWH scabbard. The two in the middle are wide P W H scabbards, and of course the TWB on the right. No large example, sorry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
byf41 Posted July 28, 2014 Share #2 Posted July 28, 2014 Excellent observation if it holds up Misfit . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Misfit 45 Posted July 28, 2014 Author Share #3 Posted July 28, 2014 The obvious flaw in my conclusion is this. We can assume that all the PWH variations preceded the TWB moniker of 1969. Therefore, those scabbards lacking the fringe cover would necessarily have come earlier than the TWB, a date we have yet to discover. However, it might be correct to conclude that the small PWH came first, followed by the large PWH, followed again by the wide P W H. Marv Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sactroop Posted July 28, 2014 Share #4 Posted July 28, 2014 Marv are the rivets on the TWB and last PWH larger than on the other PWH's? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kilian Posted July 28, 2014 Share #5 Posted July 28, 2014 The three on the right also have very similar, if not identical, USM8A1 markings: No periods after U and S and a low horizontal strike in the A. In conjunction with the observation on the fringe cover, it is indeed likely they were manufactured in the order: small PWH, large PWH, wide PWH, TWB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Misfit 45 Posted July 29, 2014 Author Share #6 Posted July 29, 2014 Marv are the rivets on the TWB and last PWH larger than on the other PWH's? Measuring these four and one other "small" PWH I have, they are .338 to .341 in diameter. Marv Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popcorn Posted December 30, 2015 Share #7 Posted December 30, 2015 I think you're on to something here. Pictured here left to right are a M8 BMCO, M8A1 small PWH(again with the dots after the U and S) and a wide spaced PWH M8A1. Note the older M8 and first M8A1 has the fringe so it does seem for whatever reason the fringe was dropped in later production. The PWH with the fringe came with a BOC M7 and the one with out the fringe came with an Imperial M7. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bayonetman Posted December 30, 2015 Share #8 Posted December 30, 2015 Just to throw in a little information. I am constantly finding newer information, and some (or a lot of it) doesn't get into my writings. Contract information for the period 1965-1976 is available online although VERY confusing. I continue to dig and try to match it up with what other information I have. Many of the contractors made items other than bayonets and scabbards, and unfortunately the online information tells a great deal EXCEPT what the actual item being contracted for actually is. I have to base what I find on known contract numbers from packaging labels as well as other odds and ends, so sometimes I cannot pinpoint what the contracts were for. To date I have only verified one contract to TWB for the M8A1 scabbard. Contract # A0AF01908756 issued January 1969 to be completed May 1970. Contractor Name WORKING BLIND Location Philadelphia, PA. Unfortunately the quantity is never shown in the online contract file, but the dollar amount would indicate something in the region of 1,000,000 scabbards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bayonetman Posted December 30, 2015 Share #9 Posted December 30, 2015 For those that have not read it, Ralph Cobb's excellent article on the PWH and TWB scabbards is a must read. http://worldbayonets.com/Library/Articles/m8a1_article.pdf I know most of you are familiar with his website http://worldbayonets.com/ and if not, please browse it as it answers many questions that all of us have from time to time. He has put a great deal of work in this site and it deserves recognition as one of the very best available to collectors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skautdog Posted December 30, 2015 Share #10 Posted December 30, 2015 Thanks, all, for the lessons. You've provided yet another great reference. Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popcorn Posted December 31, 2015 Share #11 Posted December 31, 2015 Great info Gary! Now the million dollar question. Are there any milspec drawings or other information out there as to when the "fringe" was dropped from M8A1 production? Something like the drawings of the backcut change on the M7s in 1974 could really narrow it down. Happy New Year everyone!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bheskett Posted December 31, 2015 Share #12 Posted December 31, 2015 Oh great now I have to sort through my bayonets to make sure I have the correct era blades with matching sheaths. Great work Bayonet people and what a great resource for my questions that I am sure will pop up. Just got through looking at the website, all I can say is WOW. Many thanks from a non-bayonet guy that needs to sit down and take a close look at just what I have. Have a Safe and Happy New Year Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popcorn Posted December 31, 2015 Share #13 Posted December 31, 2015 Oh great now I have to sort through my bayonets to make sure I have the correct era blades with matching sheaths. Great work Bayonet people and what a great resource for my questions that I am sure will pop up. Just got through looking at the website, all I can say is WOW. Many thanks from a non-bayonet guy that needs to sit down and take a close look at just what I have. Have a Safe and Happy New Year Bob Oh yes. If you have an Milpar M7 with a M10 scabbard that just won't do. LOL. Have a great New year! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
earlymb Posted December 31, 2015 Share #14 Posted December 31, 2015 Here are my scabbards, maybe these pics are useful for comparison? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chas100 Posted January 2, 2016 Share #15 Posted January 2, 2016 I opened another box of The CMP packaged bayonets and scabbards. Inside was a PWH (wide version I believe). I'm not opening the bayonet package as I believe it is Imperial as it is marked the same on the sealed plastic as the other that I opened. The box that contained the scabbard and bayonet was marked 2/77. I believe this is the date the two were packaged together in the box. Here's a few pics of the PWH. It doesn't have the extended flap. If anyone thinks it could be something other than Imperial bayonet let me know please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bayonetman Posted January 2, 2016 Share #16 Posted January 2, 2016 You are correct in that the bayonet is an Imperial from the contract number. It seems that by far the bulk of the ones the CMP are selling are from that one contract, which would make sense based on the 1977 repack date when the scabbards were added. The scabbards packed with these seemed to be a mixed lot as I have seen everything from BMCo to TWB. Yours (according to your photo) is a Large PWH. The wide is much wider spacing between the letters. The cover on the lower fringe apparently was deleted sometime during the PWH contract. I have seen it rarely on the large font, and never on the wide font. I have attached photos for those trying to figure out what is meant by small, large and wide fonts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chas100 Posted January 2, 2016 Share #17 Posted January 2, 2016 You are correct in that the bayonet is an Imperial from the contract number. It seems that by far the bulk of the ones the CMP are selling are from that one contract, which would make sense based on the 1977 repack date when the scabbards were added. The scabbards packed with these seemed to be a mixed lot as I have seen everything from BMCo to TWB. Yours (according to your photo) is a Large PWH. The wide is much wider spacing between the letters. The cover on the lower fringe apparently was deleted sometime during the PWH contract. I have seen it rarely on the large font, and never on the wide font. I have attached photos for those trying to figure out what is meant by small, large and wide fonts Small 2.JPG Large a.JPG Wide a.JPG Thanks Gary !! I have 2 more unopened packages from The CMP. I'm going to open the boxes to check the scabbards and leave the bayonets sealed unless the package has different numbers for the bayonets. Thank You again Gary and hope all is well !! Chuck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Camaro69427 Posted October 11, 2016 Share #18 Posted October 11, 2016 Hey guys! I hate to bump, but has there been any further research on this? It seems like it is a really plausible theory. I just bought a used M7 bayonet with M8A1 scabbard from my local Army Surplus store. The M8A1 is a Large PWH without the fringe. I know it could be a relacement but, the bayonet is a BOC with the rounded corner 90 degree runout cut, FWIW. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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