Sure, call it what you want Russ.
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Posted 23 August 2014 - 04:09 AM
Posted 23 August 2014 - 04:19 AM
Just a quick note of recognition. While these gorgeous wing photos may be from my site the badges themselves and the photos are from Cliff's collection. Thanks for sharing them and adding additional depth to this thread Cliff.
Posted 23 August 2014 - 06:43 PM
This Dan S. Dunham wing badge was purchased by Lt. J Maurice Hoare in 1918. I received it directly from Lt Hoare prior to his passing. Notice the feathers are not spaced with a jeweler saw such as found on the Eisenstadt and BB&B Dallas wings. Most likely this wing was made from one of the dies pictured above.
Posted 24 August 2014 - 02:47 PM
Terry, see below: Using 'photoshop,' I've managed to compare the images Patrick provided of the Dunham dies when he first started this thread along with the wing used by Lt. J. Maurice Hoare. There is no doubt those same dies were used to make it, and those massive wings along with that impressive center shield really make a statement.
One has to wonder just how rare an example like Lieutenant Hoare's pilot badge really is. Frankly, to my knowledge it may be the only full size example in that style that has turned up in a collection. . . at least for know. You are very fortunate to have it.
Just in case they went unnoticed, the dies for the same wings seen on Lieutenant Hoare's pilot badge were also used by Mr. Dunham when he made a full size Balloon Pilot badge which can be seen in post #23.
All the best,
Edited by CliffP, 24 August 2014 - 02:57 PM.
Posted 25 August 2014 - 02:05 PM
I know of at least one (and maybe two) other collections that have the large Dunham wing. Apparently, they had two variations, a small version and the large version made by Dunham. While EITHER version is very rare, the large one is even more scarce.
A number of us have been lucky enough to see a wonderful collection of WWI wings who has perhaps THE greatest wing collection (and while I have photos, I promised the owner not to post them--sorry).
As for Dallas wings, in his collection alone, I counted over 8 different variations. The two most common Dallas wing types being the BB&B and Eisenstadt versions. There is actually a second Eisenstadt (IIRC) variation that has a notably larger shield then the more common variation. Then there are at least 2 Dunham Dallas wing styles (one shown above). There is a straight shield variation, and a very interesting Dallas wing that seems to have been hand chased. Then there one or two others that are in the Dallas wing style (by Dallas wings, I am talking about a 3 piece design attached to a brass backing with a pin attachment).
An interesting point is that some of the "traditional" Dallas wing characteristics that people use to tell the fakes from the real things (i.e. the beading extending past the tips of the feathers and the wing cut outs) actually aren't universally applicable to all the different Dallas wing variations. See that the Dunham wing doesn't even have the beading of the BB&B and Eisnstadt, much less the wing cut outs.
Hopefully, the Wing King will join the form and post some of this stuff or David Hill will get around to publishing his book on wings.
Edited by pfrost, 25 August 2014 - 02:06 PM.
Posted 25 August 2014 - 02:53 PM
While I promised not to show pictures of his collection, I think it is kosher to "reconstruct" at least part of his collection using previously posted wings from the forum that I compiled in this picture. I believe that ALL the wings shown here are vintage 1917-1918 and represent some of the range of WWI Dallas wing variations. Be advised, that some of the variations I didn't find posted (such as the smaller variation of the Dunham Dallas wing). I think that there are at least 4 or 5 other types not shown.
Not to quibble, but the 3 piece on a backing type wing seemed to be popular, and I have seen a few wings that normally show up as single wings (like the second wind down on the left) sometimes also show up in the Dallas style.
You can see other examples on Bob's great site here:
Posted 25 August 2014 - 03:53 PM
Update--you know, if you could put together this collection for real, you would be looking at probably between $9-15K!
Thanks to Cliff for the other image (and Bob).
Edited by pfrost, 25 August 2014 - 04:02 PM.
Posted 26 August 2014 - 02:39 AM
Re: Post number #33
I believe that ALL the wings shown here are vintage 1917-1918 and represent some of the range of WWI Dallas wing variations.
Why do you refer to a Dunham pilot wing (1) as being one of the range of "Dallas Style" wing variations? I simply don't see any similarities between it and a true "Dallas Style" wing (2) such as one made by Bailey, Banks & Biddle. . . other than the fact that both have two wings and a center shield with the letters "US" on it.
Did Dunham really ever make a "Dallas Style" wing? It seems to be an assumption that is questionable.
Edited by CliffP, 26 August 2014 - 03:07 AM.
Posted 26 August 2014 - 05:12 AM
I think that the jury is still out on the straight sided shield with beading. Has the elusive photo of one being worn been found. This earlier thread should be considered before a purchase .http://www.usmilitar...gs#entry1128563
Mike, to my knowledge no such photo has turned up yet, but there is always hope.
This is a badge that has had its share of controversy over the years but Patrick has one that he feels is good and I respect that.
The ones that I have actually held in hand were no good. One incident that comes to mind happened in 1987 (golly was it really that long ago) when a northern collector/dealer (not in New England) tried to sell me three at one time but Duncan Campbell convinced me to not even consider it. I also have a copy of a letter with images sent by a collector who was trying to trade one off in 1980 and to my knowledge he is still trying to get rid of it. Maybe, if given a little more time, he will eventully succeed in doing so?
Posted 26 August 2014 - 06:00 AM
More excellent information being exchanged here! Thank you for the images and shared knowledge.
Regarding the straight sided shield example, I don't doubt reproductions of this style are out there. But I've also had the opportunity to handle several which I firmly believe to be authentic.
My two cents...
Posted 26 August 2014 - 09:23 AM
Not to get off topic on other questions. My point when I made the montage was that there are more variations of these "Dallas-Style" ((by this I mean a wing with 3 pieces attached to a fabric covered backing) wings out there then many people may be aware. In the Wing King's collection he has about 40 unique metal WWI wing patterns!
I count about 3 (maybe even 4) variations in the Eisenstadt line of wings (small shield, broad shield, and an all metal version that is hallmarked "Eagle"). There are at least 3, but maybe up to 4 Dunham styles (the small version with fat wings, the oversize version with fat wings, and perhaps a version with the skinny wings (see the other set of Dunham dies and the balloon pilot wing)).
As for the straight sided shield, I guess it depends on which jury you talk to . But here is another thread where I tried to compare what I strongly believe is the "good" straight sided shied with a fake version of the wings--and a bonus at the end of that thread where I believe I have found a photo of that wing being worn... not that the photo is as clear as it needs to be for absolute proof.
http://www.usmilitar...= dallas wings
Posted 26 August 2014 - 03:14 PM
My point when I made the montage was that there are more variations of these "Dallas-Style" ((by this I mean a wing with 3 pieces attached to a fabric covered backing) wings out there then many people may be aware.
While unintentional the montage might be interpreted as covering a broader spectrum of different wings rather than just Dallas style badges. One example not applicable would be any wing made by Dunham. Dunham did not make a Dallas style badge.
In Duncan Campbell's book, Aviation Badges And Insignia of the United States Army 1913 - 1946 (First Edition 1977 - unabridged), on page 14, paragraphs 6 and 7, a description for what "Dallas wings" looked like is clearly defined - along with two photos for anyone so inclined to read it.
Image "Number 23 was the most popular of silver metal wing badges. . . . seen than any other in photographs of groups of aviators who completed their flight training in that area. (See page 15, numbers 23 and 27).
. . . . . . this series of three-piece silver metal wings mounted on blue wool represent the very finest of all the world's aeronautical badges. There is artistic balance in their elements, each is exquisitely designed, yet there is rugged masculinity in their overall appearance. None of the designs that followed after them has ever approached them in attractiveness, proving they never should have been discarded."
Because of the vast amount of historical information that can be found in the book written by Campbell it continues to remain the undisputed primary reference for anyone seriously interested in studying and collecting USASC, USAAS, USAAC and USAAF wings (1913 to 1946); therefore, since his description of what Dallas style wings actually looked like could not have been any clearer is it wrong to think that description should set the standard?
See post number 33 in this thread for addition reference.
Edited by CliffP, 26 August 2014 - 03:39 PM.
Posted 28 August 2014 - 07:58 PM
Cliff and Patrick,
I don't collect wings any more but I remain interested in the hobby and still keep a copy of Duncan Campbell's book on wing badges. This may sound trite to a few but as a collector it was like a bible and I still refer to it. If any one left a legacy behind to help collectors it was Mr. Campbell through his many books written on U.S. military history and insignia.
Thank you both for your help on wings too.
Edited by will m., 28 August 2014 - 08:09 PM.
Posted 29 August 2014 - 07:12 AM
While a bit off the subject, I would like to say that I consider the works of Duncan Campbell to be some of the most important and still
completely relevant works in wing collecting.
They tend to fall out of favor with the younger crowd because they don't have pretty pictures, but the
text is a gold mine of valuable information and any new collector would make a serious mistake buy not attaining a copy for reference.
Hopefully, authors like Duncan Campbell (and the great Randy Steffen in US Cavalry research) continue inspire younger collectors to do research
of their own and contribute further to this hobby.
Uncovering items like these Dunham dies shows that there are still many exciting and rare wings (and dies) out there to yet uncover and find.
To me the hunt and research is half the fun, how boring it would be to just buy it all at once!
Posted 02 September 2014 - 02:20 PM
J. Duncan Campbell
Duncan Campbell had a vital love of learning and was truly a man of many parts, each of which he seemed to cultivate to high competence and distinction, but for all his diligently earned knowledge, he never appeared distantly academic.
Whether the subject was military insignia, early Army aviation, or excavations of Revolutionary War encampments, Duncan could engage practically anyone with his focused enthusiasm and command of telling accurate details on a myriad of subjects.
As he practiced his life long profession of researching, writing and teaching history, he made certain that he held to the highest standards in sifting materials to gain the most accurate facts he possibly could. In his uncompromising search for truth he enjoyed the amateur's sense of wonder and delight as well as the expert's informed and sustained attention.
He was ever a congenial companion, easy to engage in conversation and generous in sentiment.
He was a highly skilled archeologist and served as a consultant to the Smithsonian Institution and the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania. Among the sites he was retained to excavate and study were the Revolutionary War encampments at Valley Forge and Morristown, NJ, as well as Fort Ticonderoga and Sackets Harbor, NY, Fort Atkinson, NB and Fort Adams, MS.
He was a Founding Director of the Company of Military Historians.
An accomplished author, he published, among other books, Aviation Badges of the United States Army, 1913-1946; a standard reference work on American Military Insignia 1800-1851, published by Smithsonian Publications. He was a prime contributor who assisted with the writing of the Encyclopedia of United States Army Insignia and Uniforms, published by the University of Oklahoma Press in 1996. His final book, covering American Headgear Insignia, was published in 2004 at age 88.
All in all, he exemplified a servant leadership in his constant willingness to strive for the better interests and greater good of others, and it was a rare privilege to know him as the gentleman he was to everyone who came in contact with him.
With his passing, anyone interested in military history, Army insignia and wing badge collecting lost an outstanding Historian Emeritus and true friend for all who met him.
Edited by CliffP, 02 September 2014 - 02:31 PM.
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