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Interesting Ebay Auction


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#1 pfrost

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Posted 25 July 2014 - 04:13 PM

I am a little bit surprised by the lack of discussion on this recent ebay auction.  A set of very interesting (and I assume) original BB&B WWI Dallas wings came available.  They sold with only one bid--that seemed even more interesting.

 

I assumed that either the guys making reproductions would knock themselves over getting at these dies, while the major collectors would try equally hard to keep them from that fate.

 

 

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#2 pfrost

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Posted 25 July 2014 - 04:17 PM

Basically, they were the dies for two different Dallas style wings.  They included the left and right wings for the two patterns and the shield and the US. 

 

Fascinating things.  I wonder who got them?

 

I hope a collector who will preserve them and not someone who will start flooding the market.

 

Still, its a pretty neat opportunity to see what a die looks like for a WWI Dallas wing. 

 

I think the back would have been in the "cliche" style (a mirror image of the front), so one can maybe hope if the repro-artists get a hold of them, we can still tell the good from the bad.

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#3 Brig

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Posted 25 July 2014 - 04:26 PM

Was there documentation? Perhaps they were the dies of a faker, hence the lack of interest?

 

Not a wing guy, just trying to stir up some discussion points



#4 David D

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Posted 25 July 2014 - 04:29 PM

These were discussed in the misc unknown section.

-Dave

#5 BROBS

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Posted 25 July 2014 - 05:59 PM

http://www.usmilitar...ants-some-dies/



#6 bschwartz

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Posted 25 July 2014 - 07:29 PM

It's interesting that the dots on top of the wings in the upper set don't extend past the tip of the wing.  



#7 hawk3370

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Posted 26 July 2014 - 06:14 AM

I am a little bit surprised by the lack of discussion on this recent ebay auction.  A set of very interesting (and I assume) original BB&B WWI Dallas wings came available.  They sold with only one bid--that seemed even more interesting.

 

I assumed that either the guys making reproductions would knock themselves over getting at these dies, while the major collectors would try equally hard to keep them from that fate.

 

 

 

These dies were received from the son of Dan S. Dunham by Duncan Campbell shortly after WW2. They remained in his collection until he passed a couple years ago. I am pleased to say they were purchased by a devoted collector and any strikes from these dies will never see the light of day. They are the original dies from Dunham circa 1918.

Terry



#8 will m.

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Posted 06 August 2014 - 10:19 AM

These dies were received from the son of Dan S. Dunham by Duncan Campbell shortly after WW2. They remained in his collection until he passed a couple years ago. I am pleased to say they were purchased by a devoted collector and any strikes from these dies will never see the light of day. They are the original dies from Dunham circa 1918.

Terry

 

Terry, wouldn't most collectors of early military wings classify those dies as National Treasurers?

 

Will
 



#9 hawk3370

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Posted 06 August 2014 - 02:34 PM

 

Terry, wouldn't most collectors of early military wings classify those dies as National Treasurers?

 

Will
 

 

Will,

I certainly would consider them as such. With the exception of a couple close friends of Duncan, no one knew these existed. This lack of knowledge about these dies probably influenced most people that were watching the auction leaving a huge question in their minds, some of which are reflected by some of the above comments,  hence the lack of interest in the auction I suspect. I personally thought they would go for several thousand.  I contacted Duncan's son after his passing and asked about the dies. He said that they were given to a friend of the family. Seems that was probably not the case as any  friend of Duncan would not let them go into the general collectors market in my opinion.  At least I know they went to a good home and will never be used to reproduce Dunham wings for resale.

 

A couple points on the Dunham wings, the beading did not extend past the tip of the wing like one finds on the "Dallas"  Eisenstadt or BB&B strikes. The feathers were not undercut with a jeweler saw like the "Dallas" wings. And one finds the Dunham wings with both pin back and screw post attachments.

 

Terry



#10 pfrost

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Posted 07 August 2014 - 08:50 AM

Terry, I had initially thought that these dies may have had a connection to Duncan Campbell, but I was under the impression that his set of dies were safe in the hands of collectors not likely to put them out onto ebay.  So, I thought that they were something new.

 

Actually, we have had some very interesting discussions about these dies in the past.   Reproductions made using these dies showed up in the Norm Flayderman collection  a number of years ago, and a few vintage examples have been posted here and there.  You may want to look over some of these past threads to get some additional background information.

 

http://www.usmilitar...uncan campbell

 

http://www.usmilitar...ng#entry1454514


Edited by pfrost, 07 August 2014 - 08:50 AM.


#11 hawk3370

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Posted 07 August 2014 - 03:51 PM

Terry, I had initially thought that these dies may have had a connection to Duncan Campbell, but I was under the impression that his set of dies were safe in the hands of collectors not likely to put them out onto ebay.  So, I thought that they were something new.

 

Actually, we have had some very interesting discussions about these dies in the past.   Reproductions made using these dies showed up in the Norm Flayderman collection  a number of years ago, and a few vintage examples have been posted here and there.  You may want to look over some of these past threads to get some additional background information.

 

http://www.usmilitar...uncan campbell

 

http://www.usmilitar...ng#entry1454514

 

Patrick,

In conversation with Duncan he stated that when he acquired the dies he had a local machine shop make several copies from the dies. Each was marked on the back with the date it was made and the fact that it was a reproduction. He said he gave several sets to friends of his, perhaps that's where the Fladerman examples came from. To date I have never seen a attributed second pattern Dunham ( the one with the long wing). The pictures of the Dunham wings in Duncan's book were of those that were made after he acquired the dies hence the under cut of the feathering by a jeweler saw. Duncan had not seen an original attributed Dunham until I showed him the one I received from Lt J. Maurice Hoare. If you look in both Duncan's book and mine you will see the Aeronaut wing worn by Lt. Lawrence L. Phipps, notice the picture of Lt. Hoare's wing badge in my book and the picture of Lt. Phipps Aeronaut wing you will see the feathers have not been undercut by a jeweler saw. Also indicated by the die in the auction. Another note the Dunham fighting Observer wing was not made using the Dunham pilot die, the fighting observer wing by Dunham has a smaller wing than the pilot.

 

Terry
 



#12 will m.

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Posted 08 August 2014 - 03:03 PM

Terry, I had initially thought that these dies may have had a connection to Duncan Campbell, but I was under the impression that his set of dies were safe in the hands of collectors not likely to put them out onto ebay.  So, I thought that they were something new.

 

Actually, we have had some very interesting discussions about these dies in the past.   Reproductions made using these dies showed up in the Norm Flayderman collection  a number of years ago, and a few vintage examples have been posted here and there.  You may want to look over some of these past threads to get some additional background information.

 

http://www.usmilitar...uncan campbell

 

http://www.usmilitar...ng#entry1454514

 

Patrick, thank you for this thread and for posting the additional previous two past threads also dealing with the old dies Mr. Campbell owned.  Terry, the same to you too for responding to my question earlier.  I use to collect but no longer do; however, I still own the book by Mr. Campbell and do on occasion check a few of the other forums just to keep up with what is going on in the world of collecting and this is one of the more informative threads I can remember reading in a long time.  You have posted a lot of information that probably could not be found anywhere else and I'm sure other collectors or former collectors feel the same way.  Well, at least the more serious ones. Will 

 

 



#13 CliffP

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Posted 13 August 2014 - 07:43 AM

Dan S. Dunham (1877-1955) in his original San Antonio, TX shop circa 1918.

                                                                    (Click to enlarge)

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Edited by CliffP, 13 August 2014 - 07:49 AM.


#14 Bugme

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Posted 13 August 2014 - 09:00 AM

I know nothing about these but what a cool read!



#15 B-17Guy

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Posted 17 August 2014 - 07:11 AM

What a great and historic photo Cliff.

I hope the folks in the forum appreciate the rarity of a photo, not to mention the dies.

Thanks for sharing the photo and being a part of the forum!

 

Best, John



#16 Patchcollector

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Posted 17 August 2014 - 07:55 AM

Great "behind the scenes" thread on how the Wings were made and by who as well.Thanks to all who contributed!



#17 bschwartz

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Posted 17 August 2014 - 10:17 AM

Very cool to see a photo of Dunham and his shop.  Clearly not a "business casual" environment, ha.  Gives you a real feel for the hand crafted nature of the WW1 era items.  It's no wonder they're beauty holds up all these years later.  Thanks for posting another amazing item from your archives Cliff.



#18 CliffP

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Posted 17 August 2014 - 06:54 PM

John & Bob,

 

Thank you for those comments about the photo of Dan Dunham.  At first I was reluctant to post it since I wasn't too sure if any would understand just how significant or important it might really be for collectors of wings.  If my memory is correct, it is the only known photo of one of the better known designers and makers of WW1 wings that has ever come to the surface. . . at least for now.

 

I realize my skepticism was probably unwarranted but there does seem to be a good number of collectors who do very little research on their own.  Either they don't know what steps to take initially, or they could just be disinterested which is something a few of us find hard to understand since doing research can be half the fun that comes from collecting wings.  Sure, it may require a little added effort or commitment but it can be very rewarding.  A good example of how rewarding it can be would be that photo. . .  and for the record, it was not found on the internet.

 

I'll just close by saying to those who have a solid appreciation for wings, military history and research, I hope you like the photo too. 

 

Kind regards,

 

Cliff

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Edited by CliffP, 17 August 2014 - 07:09 PM.


#19 hawk3370

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Posted 19 August 2014 - 03:08 PM

John & Bob,

 

Thank you for those comments about the photo of Dan Dunham.  At first I was reluctant to post it since I wasn't too sure if any would understand just how significant or important it might really be for collectors of wings.  If my memory is correct, it is the only known photo of one of the better known designers and makers of WW1 wings that has ever come to the surface. . . at least for now.

 

I realize my skepticism was probably unwarranted but there does seem to be a good number of collectors who do very little research on their own.  Either they don't know what steps to take initially, or they could just be disinterested which is something a few of us find hard to understand since doing research can be half the fun that comes from collecting wings.  Sure, it may require a little added effort or commitment but it can be very rewarding.  A good example of how rewarding it can be would be that photo. . .  and for the record, it was not found on the internet.

 

I'll just close by saying to those who have a solid appreciation for wings, military history and research, I hope you like the photo too. 

 

Kind regards,

 

Cliff

 

Cliff,

Thanks so much for posting. Its images such as this that completes the circle in the collecting of WW1 wings. I suspect most people fell that these wings were made in huge factories pumping out hundreds a day. But in fact most were made in a back room of a jewelry shop or small shop such as this. Attached is a picture of the Linz Bros store around the WW1 period. The same shop that made the beautiful and unique Linz Bros wing badge. Again thanks for reaching into that bag of historical material that you seem to have an endless supply of and pulling out the Dunham pic.

Terry

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  • linz shop 001.jpg


#20 mghcal

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Posted 19 August 2014 - 03:35 PM

Both the photo and postcard are really interesting. Thank you both for sharing those.



#21 bschwartz

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Posted 19 August 2014 - 04:07 PM

Another amazing shot, thanks for posting Terry.  Linz looks like they were one high end jeweler!



#22 skypilot6670

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Posted 19 August 2014 - 04:25 PM

The photos and / or the research are what really complete the hobby that we enjoy so much.Further it is very exciting to realize that you have contributed to the previously unknown or lost history.The documentation also can increase the value of an artifact .Thanks to all who have selflessly given their knowledge and time so a novice like myself can learn.You gentlemen make this hobby fun and very enjoyable. Fraternally, Mike

#23 CliffP

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Posted 22 August 2014 - 08:39 AM

Four interesting World War 1 wings made by Dan S. Dunham, circa 1918

Double click to enlarge:

 

Courtesy of Bob Schwartz:  http://www.ww2wings.com/main.shtml

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  • 5--Dun-working-copy-.jpg

Edited by CliffP, 22 August 2014 - 08:41 AM.


#24 rustywings

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Posted 22 August 2014 - 10:34 AM

Stunning Dunham badges!  Thank you Cliff.

 

The information and images already shared in this thread is significant. I believe it's worthy of pinning, but I'll hold off in doing so until the current interest level wanes a bit and the topic begins to drop towards the archives. 

 

Patrick, since you're the originator of this thread, I'd like your approval to change the title to "WWI Wing Dies & Catalogs" or something similar. Once we pin the thread, I think a more descriptive title of the contents might make it easier for all to find.

 

Any other ideas or opinions out there?

 

Russ



#25 BROBS

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Posted 22 August 2014 - 10:47 AM

Russ,

I think that would be great.

I don't collect WW1 wings but I can see how this is of great interest to those who do and even to myself as the basis of WW2 wing production.

 

-Brian




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