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sword identification needed


bheskett
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A visitor at the River Raisin National park dropped this off the other day. Can anyone tell me anything about it.

 

Thanks Bob

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Any help would be appreciated. I can not see the hallmark under the brass hand guard.

 

Thanks

Bob

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Thanks Steve

That is what we were hoping. The Park River Raisin is an 1812 battlefield, so it would look great in the museum we have.

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Can you see the maker's name if you shine a flashlight under the langet or is that not where it is? If you shine the light in from one side and look from the other you may be able to see it. Is the grip bone or ivory? I'll have to look up where Park River Raisin (?) is. That is one nice donation. The guard seems to be somewhat bent - but what the heck.

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Horseclover

If we look at Harold Peterson's quotes about sword regulations, those of the years 1813-1814 are "cut and thrust, yellow mounted, with a black or yellow grip" This implies straight, or nearly straight blades. Re-enforced by regulations a year later requiring "sabre, gilt scabbards" for dress and the old c&t for undress (spadroons). However, sabres of the type shown were used for mounted artillery officers right up into the 1840s. Regulations change again in 1821 for foot artillery, with the addition of a shell like counterguard vs the simple langets. Of course in the day, officers were often wont to carry what they damn pleased. Gilt mounted sabres also used by some naval and marine officers.

 

The mounted artillery sabres certainly do fall in the 1812 war period. The Medicus collection book from Fladerman & Mowbray (the younger) has a couple of pages of bird head sabres.

 

Hilts are sometimes distorted toward the blade in that manner in an attempt to tighten the fit.

 

A dress and undress pair of artillery swords. The sabre from Berger in France.

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Cheers

 

GC

 

 

 

 

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Thanks for all the input. I grew up 30 miles from the battleground and had no idea it was there until I started working in Monroe. The folks in the area wanted to forget the whole affair since it was a loss for the Americans. Of 1000 Americans that took part only 33 escaped being killed or captured. Also it was the site of a massacre of the wounded that were left by the British and the bodies lay unburied until the end of the war. The U.S. did get back at the British at the Battle of the Thames when the British line broke and we finished the Niagara Campaign victorious. It is a nice little park and is the nations newest National Park so there is a lot of work to do to get it up to snuff. I have been in on a few planning sessions and the plan will take a good ten to fifteen years to complete. It is pretty cool being on this end of the National Park experience. We are having a reenacting event this Fall for those that wish to join us. Check the events section and search for Star Spangled Salute.

 

Bob

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Bob,

 

The others are right on the money concerning this sword... and thanks to those who answered.

 

The interesting thing about your sword to me is what appears to be the US Federal eagle cast into the langet of the guard. Could you post a closeup of the eagle for us?

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Horseclover

Bobs sword does have some characteristics similar, if not exacting to some of the Berger swords, Here a detail of a Berger langet and has the name Berger along with Paris,

 

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The Berger family were based in the Alsace area and my sabre lacks the eagle on a langet and A.Berger is on the ricasso just above the plain langet.

 

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The etching on both Paris and Alsace swords are fairly distinctive

 

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There were certainly other cutlers using the imperial looking eagle on langets and sometimes common parts, so if able to read the maker/cutler's name is a plus. I have another mounted artillery sword I believe was by Knecht, of Solingen but can't quite read the mark under the langet. So, if Bob;s sword also has the parrot looking eagle with the E Pluribus Unum banner, it would surely be a Berger.

 

Cheers

 

GC

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I have asked the lead Ranger at the park if I can take the sword home and get into a better discussion with it in hand so I can answer clarifying questions and get everything I can on the sword. Thanks again for all the feedback.

Bob

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More pics. There is etching on each side but it is tough to see. I found the hallmark but can not read that.

 

Bob

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I've taken a Qtip with oil on it and run it over the maker's name to clean it up a little. Then with a flashlight and a magnifier you should be able to read it.

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Thanks I had limited time this afternoon to get pics. The park is a 45 minute drive and this is not the top of their to-do list. I will cleen it up a bit and see if I can get a better pic.

 

Thanks

Bob

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Horseclover

Thanks for the additional photos. I generally try to be restrained in my own assertions as to comparison but there sure are elements that show it as a Berger or close kin. The very broad guard (now deformed), plain ferrule, the langet. The etchings you show, also more of a continental vs English blue&Ygilt but I can't really say for sure

 

I have less than a dozen Berger example image files but other than the "polly want a nation" sqwaking banner etching, there is another example of Berger's work that is just a federal shield and quiver of arrows. I guess I am trying to see what I want to but will attach that one. The other side of the blade likewise, often a stand of arms, usually a canon and spears crossed above a drum or drums.

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More generally associated with eagle pommel Berger swords, the American market was not the only sales of output. i wish I had more source information on the family. Described by American authors just mentioning him/them as obscure, a continental writer mentions them only in passing regarding sabres popular/common during the Napoleonic years

 

I also try not to be surprised in any find regarding makers marks, so I can't say what I see under the langet. Something that might still be confirmed with the piece in hand.

 

The condition looks pretty stable and I would suggest not coating the blade with oil but kept just dusted and dry. Further conservation is certainly up to any keeper but take it easy if approaching cleaning. Sometimes doing nothing makes sense when dealing with older swords. Some waxes an option that will be recommended but I would not just yet. We don't want a bright finish on the brass and blade. I would just hang it or case it pretty much as is.

 

 

http://www.swordforum.com/forums/content.php?115-CONSERVING-ANTIQUE-SWORDS-by-Mark-McMorrow-June-17-2001-%B7-Revised-July-18-2001

 

 

http://www.swordforum.com/forums/showthread.php?78325-Sword-Care-amp-Conservation

 

Cheers

 

GC

 

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Hey Bob. Sort of keeping us on edge huh? I'd love to know who made that sword. I know your time is limited but if you get a chance....

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Patchcollector

Interesting stuff.You guys gotta quit this or soon I'm going to be adding Swords to my ever growing list of things to collect :lol:

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  • 2 weeks later...

I apologize for my tardiness on this subject. I will get down there and clean under the hand guard and get a closer look to see if the word Paris pops up. Thanks for keeping me on my toes. I need to go down to tell the Lead Ranger that the cannonballs we have may not be cannonballs.

 

Sundance thanks for keeping me on this

Bob

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