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Civil War Petty Officer Patch


Mustang.CDR
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Mustang.CDR

I have been looking for one of these for some time now. I was outbid on one on the loose last year but was successful on this one. It came on the jumper and there is a hat and bos'n whistle with it. What do you all think?

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gunbunnyB/3/75FA

i have agree it looks amazing, but to be honest its a bit out of my comfort zone on trying to tell if its real, but i do have one ? is it chain stitched?

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Mustang.CDR

Not really sure as it is still en route. Will examine with arrives and be able to take some close ups.

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Karen and I spent about 15 years reproducing historic Naval uniforms. We traveled around the country examining originals (and supposed originals) in museums and private collections, including doing conservation work. Poured over hundreds of photos and original documents. At this point, from what I can see in these photos, I have a 98% confidence that this is an original set. Of course, I would love to see more close up photos and details, and, to handle them.

 

The set is a classic example of a uniform falling into the 1859-1865 time frame. I admit, I have never seen a frock ( jumper in modern terms) "pinked" on the hem, but why not, I do believe pinking shears were in use at that time, and was a standard feature of jumpers from 1886-1913. The fabric looks correct. The PO badge is beautiful. We have to remember that all of these badges were individually hand made by the Sailor or some one on the ship with the skills. We have seen originals that were simply works of art, done in silver bullion, and others that were barely recognizable. There was only a "bare bones" description of what they were supposed to look like, so each Sailor pretty much made them like they wanted.

 

It was much the same with many uniforms. Each Sailor was issued one blue uniform and one white uniform. Whites were almost never worn, so the Sailor lived in blues. One is not enough. Ready made from the Navy or Chandler (civilian provider of Naval goods), were expensive and a Sailor would find himself in debt quickly. However, raw fabric was generally less than a third of the cost of ready made, so most Sailors bought fabric and made their own clothing (or had a Shipmate with skills make them for him for a fee). Again, unlike the Army which was painfully specific as to uniform manufacture, the Navy simply gave broad descriptions as to what the finished product should look like. I had a copy of a "contract" from the Navy to a Chandler for "500 sets of blue woolen Sailor uniforms including caps made in common Seamanship fashion". That was the entire contract. This accounts for the wide variety of styles and construction methods.

 

The Cap Ribbon is also fantastic. It is also a completely correct example of pre 1866 USN CapRibbons. These were not regulation, so we're not prescribe able. However, Sailors liked them and would make them up to wear on their best, "Get Dresses Up" hat for going ashore. They were almost, individually hand painted by the Sailor or some one in the crew. Cap Ribbons were NOT tied onto the caps. The bows were sewn to the side of the cap, then the ribbon was wrapped around and stitched down with the ends trimmed to fit under the bow. These were sometimes printed commercially for sale to the Sailors, but were expensive. In photos of entire ships crews wearing cap ribbons which all look alike, these were purchased by the CO, out of his pocket and issued. They were worn on a specific cap for occasions which the CO wanted the crew turned out in them. There are examples of Cap Ribbons with USS on them. However, these were NOT original to the Civil War, but were purchased by former Sailors for wear with GAR uniforms. Since by the time GAR reunions were popular, USS was the standard, so GAR ribbons were just produced for sale to members. Many also got hats in the 1880s style (wider), which today causes some confusion.

 

Any way, looking forward to more pics, love this stuff, thanks

 

Steve

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Just remembered a bit of trivia. When we were making uniforms, we made a set of blues for a guy who's ancestor was a Carpenters Mate on the Yantic. We made him a CapRibbon for his hat

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Mustang.CDR

Steve,

 

Thank you very much for your detailed reply. I should receive the uniform this week and I will take more close up pictures. Is there any particular area of the jumper that I should concentrate on to validate its authenticity? Unfortunately there is no marks or stenciling of the jumper or hat that can positively tie them to the same sailor, but the changes are good. You mentioned the hat ribbon, I'm guessing that it "came loose" and was just kept with the hat. Always great to share thoughts with former sailors and collectors.

Regards,

Jerry

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I know the construction of the jumper will help determine if it's the real deal. The stitching of the jumper, like Steve says these were hand sewn. I think I remember seeing this, thought about bidding. The insignia just looked to good to be true. But I probably am wromg and hope its good and not a reenactor piece.

 

Here's a uniform I posted in 2012. You may of seen it but it will give you some idea's to what to look for. This is a Liberty jumper so there probably will be differences. This one may be just post CW. I should try and research this one. But with that last name it may be hard. The more I look at that insignia on your jumper, the more I like it.

http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/136479-possible-cw-era-liberty-set/?hl= civil war

 

 

Jason

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Most of the surviving ACW Navy uniforms were hand stitched. However, depending on where they were made, could have been machine sewn. Those made in the shipyard shops or civilian Chandlers for Navy contracts tended to be whipped out by machine as quickly as possible. Those made by the Sailors them selves tended to be hand stitched. Some ships did have small hand cranked sewing machines, and Sailors did use them, but most "Sailor Mades" were hand stitched. We also know that many Sailors received clothing made by wives and Girl Friends. The vast majority of those surviving CW uniforms were "Sailor Made, best get dressed up going ashore" uniforms. This is because, like today, when they left the Navy, they wore their best home and either sold, gave away, threw away or continued to wear their issue ratty stuff until it was totally trashed. That is why most reenactors seem to think that every Sailor ran around in a uniform that was covered with embroidery and fancy work all over it.

 

I have seen more modern (Span Am and WW 1) uniforms re worked to look like CW. But they had inset sleeves, like current issue. This frock has all the features of a correct styled uniform of the time. The PO badge looks totally correct and beautiful. It also displays features of known documented originals that I have personally handled, again, understanding that ALL of these things were individually hand made.

 

Would like to see the inside Of the frock and hat, like to see the inside stitching on seams , the buttons, the stitching around the cuffs and collar, inside the neck opening. I would say from the pics posted that it is CW. The fabric looks correct, the cut and style look correct, (again, love the pinking of the hem, may incorporate that in to some of my reproductions). The badge looks correct and the fading of the badge is very telling that it is period as the colors were NOT color fast in those days and quickly faded, being all natural dyes.

 

It appears that the star on the top of the hat is not a separate piece, but simply stitching. This was a very common way to decorate hats, and a very common decoration.

 

Tags and markings. Never had any. These things, if made in ship yard shops or under contract were bundled in bails of 100 and shipped. The bail would be marked with what was in there, but the individual items were not marked or stamped, AS FAR AS I HAVE BEEN ABLE TO DETERMINE. If they had been individually marked as to size and maker, it would have been an ink or paint stamp with something like NYNSY 3 ( New York Naval Ship Yard, size 3). This would have quickly been washed out as Sailors washed their clothing weekly. Each item was also to have the owners name and ship number stamped on it in a specific location. Frocks on the front outside, above the hem to the right of center. About half of the originals I have examined had this mark, some showed where it had once been there, but washed out over the years, or was never there in the first place. This was most common on the get dressed up and hit the beach gear.

 

Ok, rambled on long enough, love these things. Looking forward to any further pics, and thank you for sharing,

 

Steve

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Mustang.CDR

Steve,

 

While on the subject of hats, etc. here are pics of two other CW Navy hats in my collection. The flat hat has no ribbon and is of the "regulation type" hard to see but it is stamped on the inside "E. Towner / USS VERMONT" the second one is the elusive "fatigue" hat.

 

Regards,

Jerry

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Very nice hats. The flat hat is also classic. The so called "Fatigue" hat, also called the "Off Duty" hat are collector/reenactor terms. They are pretty rare, only seen one worn in a photo. I think they are simply another form of head wear that Sailors chose. You see in photos and first person accounts of Sailors wearing, flat hats, straw hats, (bought, issued and home made), broad brimmed civilian hats, left over tarred brimmed hats, Mechanics hats, (mostly blue, but some painted black). I tend to think that hats with no brims were worn by Sailors who mainly worked below decks, (Mechanics hats show up on engineers often). But fantastic find none the less, well done!

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Mustang.CDR

Upon examination I have a concern that there may have been piping on the cuffs and flap as you can see "shadows". My next test will be with a UV light that I'm picking up today.

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Yeah, looks like a Span Am jumper se one has backdated. Don't like the look of the hat either. I ever saw a CW hat that did not have a lining sand a piece of batting between wool and lining. Also the tightening lace not a feature of Naval caps. Still like the PO Badge and Cap Ribbom

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gunbunnyB/3/75FA

that chain stitching bugs me a bit, i don't remember that being around during the CW.

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that chain stitching bugs me a bit, i don't remember that being around during the CW.

why, they were hand stitched?
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Patchcollector

Would the "pinking" on the bottom of the frock be for decorative purposes?I ask because were'nt the CW era frocks worn tucked in,and the later made ones worn outside?

Also,I found some pics of a CW Sailor while looking around online and I thought I would post them for all to enjoy.

 

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That pic maybe span am era? I didn't think they had the white piping during CW,(piping on jumper flap, and around cuffs)

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Patchcollector

That pic maybe span am era? I didn't think they had the white piping during CW,(piping on jumper flap, and around cuffs)

 

 

I noticed that and was wondering about it.I'm not a uniform collector so I was not sure if the era was correct for the uniform.

Here is some info from the website where I found it:

 

 

Military History/Civil War Uniform?

Expert: C. P. Schulze - 4/9/2009

 

Question

Young Sailor-John Clar

QUESTION: Good afternoon,

Is this sailor wearing a Civil War uniform associated with the USS Alabama?

Thanks!

Liz Banas

 

ANSWER: Dear Elizabeth,

 

Thank you for your question about this sailor.

Unfortunately, I am unable to confirm he is associated with the USS Alabama.

First of all, I am unable to read the name of his ship on his cap. My copy of the photo is simply not that clear.

He does appear to be wearing a Union Civil War uniform. I compared his outfit with the many photos in my possession and many aspects of his uniform do conform. The buttons on his trousers, the cap and it's ribbon, the rings on the sleeves, etc. The one aspect of his uniform I could not identify is the insignia at the top of his right sleeve. Their rates were worn on the sleeve, but this is not a typical rate insignia. They were worn between the elbow and shoulder, not at the shoulder. I was unable to identify what that white hash might mean.

My lack of knowledge relative to this hash does not indicate it was not a Union uniform, but it would be telling if it could be identified.

I do feel you have a Union Civil War sailor, but I am not 100% certain. I am unable to confirm his ship.

My apologies for not being of more assistance.

Good luck in your search.

Patrick

---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

Sailor 2

QUESTION: Dear Patrick,

Thanks for that information! I am attaching a photo of the sailors head. As you can see there are three letters visible on the band ALA. Do you have any ideas regarding ships names that contain those letters.

Thank-you,

Elizabeth Banas

 

Answer

Dear Elizabeth,

This photo was much easier to see. Thanks...

I will have to say you've got an excellent chance of this being a sailor form the USS Alabama.

However, if I were evaluating this for purposes of authenticity to establish a price, I'd have to be somewhat skeptical.

I looked at the photo under magnification and although the letters following the ALA do appear to read "BAMA", that is not certain.

I also looked up a log of US ships in that era and found none that had four letters following the ALA other than the Alabama. This is strong evidence, but again, not at all conclusive.

The reason I am not 100% certain is there appears to be a letter before the ALA which does not appear to be an "S" as in "USS". It looks like it could be "Calabash", for example.

If I were buying this, I'd be wary of paying a premium for an Alabama sailor unless there was some sort of additional provenance. If this is a family heirloom, I'd consider it to be John Clark and let it go at that.

Thanks for the interesting question.

Patrick

 

Here is a link to the site if anyone is interested:

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Military-History-669/2009/4/Civil-War-Uniform.htm

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This pic is post 1886. The frock. (Jumper ) was worn tucked in until 1911. The white lanyard was part of the uniform from 1886 until 1913. Jpers from 1886 to 1921 were pinked to cut down on bulk when tucked

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