Help correct article on "KA-BAR" and Fairbairn-Sykes

[Roger N]

Hello!

New member here. I am the chief editor and a researcher/writer for a site called HROARR.com. I recently stepped out of my comfort zone of Middle Ages/Renaissance martial arts research to write an article entitled "The KA-BAR and the Fairbairn-Sykes: Two children of different philosophies" which was published yesterday.

 

This article first started out as a background description for a planned review of a modern KA-BAR in comparison to a -61 Camillus but research ran amok and I had to split it up. However, sources on these topics are often both vague, ambiguous and contradictory and I don't trust books much more than online articles. I am sure there are several mistakes in it and I would greatly appreciate any help I can get in correcting them. Judging from the debates in here, you are the guys to ask.

 

You can find the article here:

 

http://www.hroarr.com/the-ka-bar-and-the-fairbairn-sykes-two-fighting-children-of-different-philosophies/

 

I would also like to ask if anyone knows the weight of a -61 Camillus Mark 2 without sheath. Mine seems to be lighter than the modern KA-BAR D2 which is supposed to be quite a bit ligher than the Camillus.

 

Thank you!

 

Roger

 

[Les George]

I read your article this morning and really enjoyed it, thank you.

 

The only thing I noticed that was wrong was the nomenclature for the M1918 trench knife. It was not an M3

 

Thanks for the work that went into it!

[bayonetman]

I weighed three of the Camillus made Knife, Combat (modern version of the WW2 "Ka-Bar") without the sheath from my private collection. Weights varied slightly, but would average about 10.5 ounces (300 grams). WW2 versions are about the same. As final grinding was partly by hand, a small variant in weight is to be expected, and the bevel that you mention will vary quite a bit depending on who did the grinding.

 

I know nothing about the Fairbairn-Sykes and cannot comment on it.

 

Your work on the USMC 1219c2 and USN Mark 2 does not raise any flags with me other than as mentioned above your photo of the M1918 Mark 1 is labeled the M3, which I am sure was just an overlooked error as you name them correctly in the body of the article.

 

As a "hobby" writer myself, I know how difficult it is to put information such as this in print and I commend you for your hard work.

[Tony V]

Roger

 

Thank you for a very interesting article, and welcome to the forum.

 

Tony

[SKIPH]

I might be wrong about this, but I think the MK2 pictured as a Camillus, actually looks like a late RCC guard marked. Look at the pommel, and how thin the leather washers are in front of it. Also the leather washers have a rougher finish, usually Camillus had a polished or buffed appearing leather handle. I could be wrong. SKIP

[militariaone]

Greetings Roger,

 

An interesting article. Only issue (as mentioned) was the wrong nomenclature listed for the “M1 Trench Knife with Brass Knuckle hilt” it should read “M1918 Mk. I knife.” Also, the knuckle knife and scabbard you have pictured in the article are reproductions (read: not original examples). The American made variant of this knife possessed a bronze handle, whilst the French made variant was made of brass. Check out this thread and you will see what (some) originals look like for your comparison to the example you have posted. http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/196382-m1918-mk-i-trench-knife-comparing-originals-to-your-suspect-knife-thread/

 

Welcome aboard!

 

Regards,

 

Lance

[Horseclover]

Were L-77 stilettos ever listed in catalogs as a hunting knife?

 

From Wikipedia

 

pre-war L76 and L77 pattern knives, both of which had 7-inch (180 mm) Bowie type clip blades and leather handles.

 

From another article

 

http://www.articlebiz.com/article/1051569988-1-usmc-mark-2-combat-knife-ka-bar-and-its-evolution/

 

Many Marines obtained their own knives before deploying. These were for the most part the hunting/utility knife L76 and L77 by Western States Cutlery

 

Were the L-76 and L-77 prewar? Ever listed as hunting and utility? I guess the L-76 is much like the various pig stickers. While I had used my L-77 as a barbeque and kitchen knife at times, the stoutness of it seemed quite purposeful in the thrust.

 

Cheers

 

GC

[DRE66]

I might be wrong about this, but I think the MK2 pictured as a Camillus, actually looks like a late RCC guard marked. Look at the pommel, and how thin the leather washers are in front of it. Also the leather washers have a rougher finish, usually Camillus had a polished or buffed appearing leather handle. I could be wrong. SKIP

 

You are correct, that's definitely not a Camillus MK2, RCC would be my guess as well. Good article though.

[jim_mi]

Good article. I did notice what I believe to be a misspelling:

 

"The knife was manufactured by several companies including Pasadena Firearms and Landers, Ferry & Clark."

 

I believe the correct spelling is Landers, FRARY, and Clark"

 

Jim

[Roger N]

Wow! Thank you guys!

I really appreciate all the great and kind comments!

I have corrected the slip in the caption for the M1 trench knife, as well as the Landers, Frary & Clark bit.

Gary: Thanks for weighing these! That fits well with what I thought I felt! The Camillus is indeed lighter than the modern KA-BAR!

Great with the comments about the RCC version of the USMC Mark 2. I'll try to find a photo of a Camillus original. It really takes a lot of digging to find proper ones, with the great variation and often lacking info.

Again, thanks and have a great day all!

[Roger N]

Oh, and regarding the L-77: That caused some criticism from someone else who didn't agree that it was part of the inspiration for the coming knife. According to him, the standard is to call it a stiletto and it seems to be in use. Can you confirm that it was originally presented as such?

[Roger N]

Here are mine btw: If I got it right, the Camillus is from 1961.

 

 

[Horseclover]

Oh, and regarding the L-77: That caused some criticism from someone else who didn't agree that it was part of the inspiration for the coming knife. According to him, the standard is to call it a stiletto and it seems to be in use. Can you confirm that it was originally presented as such?

My main contention was that the knife was no more influential than other stacked leather handle knives and not a hunting knife. However there is the BLAICH / WESTERN "RAIDER" KNIVES section in Bernard Levine's article.

 

http://www.knife-expert.com/usmc42-1.txt

 

That the L-76 and L-77 during were developed during the war and concurrently with the birth of of the 1219C2, I feel what is being repeated is that it is (perhaps) other Western States and other commercial knives that helped the demand for an official issued knife.

 

There are a number of Western threads that will come up in a search here and one photo shared was a WWII Western flyer.

 

I know some regard it as a fish knife but they really are a lot thicker than a fillet knife, with bird and trout knives somewhat shorter with lighter blades. I was misremembering the timeline of General Curtis LeMay's bird&trout, which came after WWII.

 

Cheers

 

GC

[militariaone]

 

Wow! Thank you guys!

I really appreciate all the great and kind comments!

I have corrected the slip in the caption for the M1 trench knife, as well as the Landers, Frary & Clark bit.

Gary: Thanks for weighing these! That fits well with what I thought I felt! The Camillus is indeed lighter than the modern KA-BAR!

Great with the comments about the RCC version of the USMC Mark 2. I'll try to find a photo of a Camillus original. It really takes a lot of digging to find proper ones, with the great variation and often lacking info.

Again, thanks and have a great day all!

 

Greetings Roger,

 

Please, allow me to share again, the photo of the M1918 Mk. I Trench Knife you have in the article and scabbard posted are not the French made variant. They are reproductions (the entire set is). It is not an "A French-made M1 Trench Knife with Brass Knuckle hilt. The original hilt was cast in bronze." If you had an original Au Lion M1918 Mk.I pictured, your caption should read, "A French-made M1918 Mk. I Trench knife with brass handle. The American made variants used bronze." Hope that clears things up, if you have someone informing you the knuckle knife you have posted in the article "is" original they are sadly mistaken. Just look at the scabbard's hooks, no expertise needed there.

 

Regards,

 

Lance

[Roger N]

Thanks Lance!
I really appreciate that. The scabbard hooks was something I was curious about and I have been looking to see where I got that one from. The Mk1 wasn't really a focus here and I haven't looked into it as much as I should. That image will be replaced by a proper one shortly though. There are bits and pieces that I am working on adjusting.

[militariaone]

Thanks Lance!

I really appreciate that. The scabbard hooks was something I was curious about and I have been looking to see where I got that one from. The Mk1 wasn't really a focus here and I haven't looked into it as much as I should. That image will be replaced by a proper one shortly though. There are bits and pieces that I am working on adjusting.

Happy to assist Roger!

 

Regards,

 

Lance

[Roger N]

GC: Thanks for your comments on the L-77!

 

A thought regarding the possible hunting-association. Could it have been used for killing the animal with? The type is commonly used for that purpose here in Scandinavia. The design looks a bit like an all-purpose knife that works both like a dagger and a regular knife, sort of like a more modern bayonet.

[sactroop]

As far as Western is concerned I've never found any catalog evidence of the L76 pattern knife prior to or after WW2. The L77 does show up in the pre-war 1941 catalog with a 5" blade. To be fair Western had several knives in that catalog of very similar design. Some of the blades just show very slight differences in blade geometry. I agree that the blade type is more of a "boning knife" than the more flexible fillet type knife. Since you brought it up I do see the similarity of the 5" L77 and Gen. LeMay's, (Boker 155), knife.

IMHO, I've thought for a long time that the double edge of the L76 was more likely influenced by the already existing Fairbairn/Sykes design than the other way around.

The G46 models existed long before the war and the 5" and 6" versions seem to have been well adapted to the utility knife needs of the governments "hunting knife" criteria. Personally I'm very fond of the G46-8, but I suspect that it was more costly to produce than the 1219C2 design and the tang would have to have been modified in order for other manufactures to tool up for production. Keep in mind that years later when Camillus bought the rights to Western knives they never made a double tang example of a Western knife due to cost.

 

Roger, nice article.

[Roger N]

Thanks Sactroop!

As promised, here is now the review of the modern KA-BAR. Hope you like it.

http://www.hroarr.com/review-ka-bar-d2-extreme-fightingutility-knife