M9 bayonet, purpose of pouch on scabbard

[kilian]

I have a question relating to the pouch on the early M9 bayonet scabbard. The original operating manual that came with my Phrobis (Patent Pending variant) states that it is designed to hold a "M9 pistol magazine, or other small items". A fellow collector does not believe that a M9 pistol magazine will fit in. I do not have a Beretta M9 so I cannot check if its magazine will fit into the pouch on the M9 bayonet scabbard. Is there anyone here who has both an M9 bayonet with pouch and a Beretta M9 magazine to check this out? A picture will be highly appreciated.

 

Thanks,

 

Kilian

[BROBS]

do you have any double stack 9mm pistol like a Sig or otherwise?

The mags are very much the same.

 

-Brian

[kilian]

No Brian, I do not have any pistols or pistol magazines. My collecting friend tried a Chech M75 and an Austrian Glock 17 and these will not fit as the pouch on his M9 bayonet is too small. He has either a non conforming pouch or there is an error in the operating manual.

[willysmb44]

I was always told it was for the sharpening stone. they later mounted a stone into the back of the scabbard and the pouch immediately vanished at the same time, which to me lends support for that being its purpose.

[bayonetman]

It was intended for the magazine, and one will fit. Cannot supply a photo until at least tomorrow as I don't have a pistol here. One of the descriptions stated it could be used with "other small items". Part of the philosophy that went along with the M9 MPBS was that it was both a bayonet and a field knife - that it could be issued both to troops armed with the rifle and those who were on crew served weapons or others who did not carry the rifle, but possibly did carry the pistol. The local National Guard unit (Combat Engineers) often used it to carry a multi-tool such as a Leatherman or Gerber. The pouch was discontinued near the end of Phrobis production and although the early LanCay M9s had a scabbard that the pouch would fit, the pouch was not issued with the LanCay version. In some units the pouch was removed, in others there were orders as to what could be carried in it, and in others it was pretty much users choice. By the mid-1990s the pouch was more or less obsolete.

 

The sharpening stone was part of the scabbard from the beginning. In the Phrobis, it was covered by a tail on the hanger assembly. When that cover was later deleted as part of the improved hanger, the complaint arose that the uncovered stone caused excessive wear on the uniform pants and it was dropped during Lan-Cay production.

[kilian]

Thank you for your contributions! I would really appreciate a picture of the magazine in the pouch to finally silence discussions that have been dragging on for years. In view of this, it does not matter if this takes a few days.

[thorin6]

Here's a picture of the magazine in the pouch:

 

[thorin6]

And here's the problem. With the strap snapped shut, you can't get the magazine in or out of the pouch:

 

[Misfit 45]

Here's a bit of trivia. In the technical manual, TM 9-1005-237-23&P, it describes all the components of the M9 MPBS and never includes the pouch at all. The Operator's Manual, which was provided by Phrobis itself, is the only reference to the M9 pouch being used for the M9 pistol magazine. This information comes from the much maligned but very useful American Gladius book.

Marv

[kilian]

Thank you very much for the pictures!

 

Kilian

[kilian]

What is the width and breadth of the M9 pistol magazine?

[BROBS]

I can measure when I get off work...

BTW Glock mags are fatter than Sig or Beretta mags.

 

-Brian

[kilian]

I truly appreciate all your kind help!

[porterkids]

This information comes from the much maligned but very useful American Gladius book.

 

 

Marv,

The author of the American Gladius decided that it didn't make sense for the pouch to be designed and meant to be used for a pistol magazine. The designer of the pouch, Mickey Finn, told me himself that it was the intended purpose and I relayed that information to the author when he was doing his book. He refused to accept the information. He went out of his way to try to disprove the facts that came directly from the source.

 

The book is much maligned for a reason; it is full of inaccuracies and outright false information. It is compiled from information the author gleened from ebay auctions and the Quarterbore web site. Photos of different variations are missing or an incorrect sketch is there in it's place. What could have been an excellent and much needed reference material bombed because the author refused to receive or utilize information or photos from outside sources. He sold the book to the publisher, cashed his check and walked away.

 

Now, if you want to learn about the P-38 can opener, American Gladius might be the book for you.

[Misfit 45]

Hi Bill,

I must admit that I do not own the TM referenced in my above post, but since the information I submitted was easily checked and refuted if in error, I took the chance that it was accurate. I know that the errors in American Gladius are many, but the pictures are great and the information is substantially correct. You are very well respected in this field with good reason. In your observation, is any of the information in my post incorrect?

Marv

[kilian]

Thank you for your replies. Before discussing that book in more detail, which in itself is very interesting, is there anybody who can provide width and breadth of the M9 pistol magazine? Brian (BROBS) has not come to that yet.

 

Kilian

[BROBS]

Kilian I am writing myself a note today. I totally spaced this off.

 

-Brian

 

sent from a stone tablet in 3000 BC.

 

 

[porterkids]

Marv,

 

Your statement is correct, the TM does not reference the pouch. However, the first pouches, the ones on the original XM9 bayonets, contained a slip of paper that said "M9 pistol magazine/accessory pouch". The manual that was provided by Phrobis with each bayonet, per US Army specification, identified the pouch as being for a pistol magazine.

[BROBS]

Ok measurements..

I do not have a government contract mag so this height measurement is without the baseplate. . Just mag body. The baseplate is thin on a government contract mag I'd say 1/16" maybe?

 

Height from feed lip to baseplate: 4 3/4"

Width across back: 13/16"

Depth from front to back 1 1/4"

 

On the height measurement keep in mind that a mag is angled forward. If I measure it as if it were going to be put in a pouch the baseplate would hit the top of the pouch at around 4 1/2".

 

Hope that helps.

- Brian

 

sent from a stone tablet in 3000 BC.

 

[kilian]

So in millimeters the width and breadth of the M9 pistol magazine would be about 20.64 mm by 31.75 mm. Thanks a lot Brian!

 

Kilian (from iPad in 2014)