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Military Oval or not?


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#1 holtz

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 04:12 PM

Is this a US Beret Oval or is it of Foreign origin?

Thanks

Bill

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#2 holtz

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 04:15 PM

Sorry I forgot to mention that it is the same size as other US Beret Ovals



#3 summersdogs

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Posted 12 June 2014 - 05:59 AM

Maybe 17th Cav Regiment...one of the squads ?  Disclaimer: Please wait for a reply from the experts.

 

Lynne



#4 holtz

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Posted 12 June 2014 - 06:18 AM

Lynne
Thanks for the reply. I thought it might be that too but the oval shape is not exactly like the current beret oval shape?
Hope I can get more reply's till we figure out exactly what it's from. I wonder if the early oval shapes were like this?

#5 patches

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Posted 12 June 2014 - 07:07 AM

Believe this here is a Flash for the mid-ish-late 70s Black Berets of the 11th Air Cavalry Regiment in West Germany, see this example posted awhile ago by MPage, these flashes were also seen in German made enamel.

 

post-257-1292120698.jpg

 

It will also display straight up and down like this.

 

tberet_flash.jpg



#6 holtz

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Posted 12 June 2014 - 08:49 AM

Patches
That's it thanks for the info.
Just a question. Was that shape of flash specific for that unit while on duty in West Germany? Because that unit also had the regular red/white flash and the normal shaped red/white oval

#7 patches

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Posted 12 June 2014 - 05:15 PM

Patches
That's it thanks for the info.
Just a question. Was that shape of flash specific for that unit while on duty in West Germany? Because that unit also had the regular red/white flash and the normal shaped red/white oval

 

I believe it was, a upright oval, the 2nd ACR in West Germany used the same oval, not sure about the 3rd ACR which was at Fort Bliss Texas, or the NG ACRs.

 

Here's a Trooper of the 2nd ACR in Germany circa late 70s, he has the same oval, but I guess these were called flashes despite them being oval. photo posted by seanmc1114.

post-1761-0-52394600-1401576704.jpg

 

 

 

The oval your refering to would be the Oval for the Squadrons of the 17th Cavalry, and their later shield type flaches, two of them were assigned to the Airborne Division, the 1st with the 82nd and the 2nd with the 101, ones that you see without TICKS should be the pre 1966 ones, after which TICKS were incorporated in to the design of all Airborne CARS unit Ovals, one tick on either side of the Oval 1st Battalion  two TICKS on either side the 2nd Battalion, or in the case of the 17th Cav, 1st and 2nd Squadrons.


Edited by patches, 12 June 2014 - 05:29 PM.


#8 patches

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Posted 12 June 2014 - 05:27 PM

Another "oval" of the 11th ACR, again MPage, this one is plastic, this one has Yellow rather than White, note sure if it was a variation or an error, I mentioned these were in enamel too, perhaps that was an error on my part, maybe it's plastic rather then enameled version I seen.

post-257-0-87926700-1400628405.jpg


Edited by patches, 12 June 2014 - 05:27 PM.


#9 MPage

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Posted 12 June 2014 - 11:37 PM

Hudspeth's book states that the 11th ACR oval flash was actually a parachute oval.



#10 patches

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Posted 13 June 2014 - 10:20 AM



Hudspeth's book states that the 11th ACR oval flash was actually a parachute oval.

I was curious about whether these 11th 2nd ACR ovals were actual 17th Cav Parachute Ovals, but see here, the top one is as the Oval is seen in period photos from the 60s from the 2nd Squadron 17th Cav 101st Abn Div at least, with the Red field being at the top left portion.

phpLc12iqAM.jpg

 

 

 

While the bottom is this oval posted by the OP flipped on it's side with the Red field is on the upper right portion, this is what we're seeing . Did the the two Squadrons of the 17th Cav then have reversed Red and White fields, like the the one on the bootom being for the 1st Squadron 17th Cav 82nd Abn Div?

t11th_acr_oval.jpg

 

 


 



#11 MPage

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Posted 13 June 2014 - 02:13 PM

I was curious about whether these 11th 2nd ACR ovals were actual 17th Cav Parachute Ovals, but see here, the top one is as the Oval is seen in period photos from the 60s from the 2nd Squadron 17th Cav 101st Abn Div at least, with the Red field being at the top left portion.

 

 

While the bottom is this oval posted by the OP flipped on it's side with the Red field is on the upper right portion, this is what we're seeing . Did the the two Squadrons of the 17th Cav then have reversed Red and White fields, like the the one on the bootom being for the 1st Squadron 17th Cav 82nd Abn Div?

 

 

 

 

There evidently were two or three 17th Cav troops raised in the late 50s which were assigned to airborne divisions;  I wonder if that's what it originally was, since it's the older oval shape.



#12 patches

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Posted 13 June 2014 - 06:11 PM

Found some more example of the Black Armor Berets of the 2nd and 11th ACR in the FRG.

 

2nd ACR

2nd ACR.jpg

 

And three from the 11th ACR

beret11%20(web).jpg beret12%20(web).jpg jacket5%20(web).jpg



#13 holtz

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Posted 18 June 2014 - 04:33 PM

Thank you all for responding to my question, however as i read through all these posts i am confused as to weather I have a 11th ACR, 2nd ACR, or 17th Cavalry or all of the above or take my pick?



#14 MPage

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Posted 18 June 2014 - 05:17 PM

Thank you all for responding to my question, however as i read through all these posts i am confused as to weather I have a 11th ACR, 2nd ACR, or 17th Cavalry or all of the above or take my pick?

 

It likely is a background trimming AKA a parachute oval.  Hudspeth's book on beret flashes identifies the 11th ACR as using that type of parachute oval as a beret flash.  Now whether they continued to be made specifically for the 11th ACR to use on their berets, I don't know.

 



#15 patches

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Posted 18 June 2014 - 09:10 PM

What I find curious is that the German made plastic ones for the 11th ACR have Yellow rather than White in them when we clearly see the cloth versions were White. Would like to know if these German plastic ones that are Red and Yellow were worn by the 2nd ACR, and conversely if any German plastic types had White sides rather than the Yellow examples we've seen so far.


Edited by patches, 18 June 2014 - 09:12 PM.


#16 MPage

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Posted 20 June 2014 - 07:28 PM

What I find curious is that the German made plastic ones for the 11th ACR have Yellow rather than White in them when we clearly see the cloth versions were White. Would like to know if these German plastic ones that are Red and Yellow were worn by the 2nd ACR, and conversely if any German plastic types had White sides rather than the Yellow examples we've seen so far.

 

OK, I got hold of the seller and he stated that all of the plastic badges were red/white, but that the clear plastic on the one in question had merely yellowed with age.  He confirmed that the cloth flashes were indeed parachute ovals. 

 

He also was the 11th ACR's adjutant by the way and is an authority on insignia.  I'll send him a link to the thread(s) but if you guys have any pertinent questions to pass along, let me know.



#17 patches

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Posted 21 June 2014 - 10:02 AM

OK, I got hold of the seller and he stated that all of the plastic badges were red/white, but that the clear plastic on the one in question had merely yellowed with age.  He confirmed that the cloth flashes were indeed parachute ovals. 
 
He also was the 11th ACR's adjutant by the way and is an authority on insignia.  I'll send him a link to the thread(s) but if you guys have any pertinent questions to pass along, let me know.

It may be that these ovals used by the ACAR in The FGR were old 1st Squadron 17th Cav 82nd Abn Div ovals because as mentioned the ovals for the 2nd Squadron 17th Cav 101st Abn Div had their Red field diagonal to the upper left portion of the oval, can't find pre mid 60s photos of the 1st Sq 17th Cav 82nd Abn Div guys to see if their ovals were the reverse, ie Red field diagonal to the upper right portion of the oval.


Edited by patches, 21 June 2014 - 10:25 AM.


#18 atb

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Posted 21 June 2014 - 10:17 AM

Believe this here is a Flash for the mid-ish-late 70s Black Berets of the 11th Air Cavalry Regiment in West Germany, see this example posted awhile ago by MPage, these flashes were also seen in German made enamel.

 

You meant 11th Armored Cavalry Regiment, right?


Edited by atb, 21 June 2014 - 10:18 AM.


#19 patches

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Posted 21 June 2014 - 10:20 AM

You meant 11th Armored Cavalry Regiment, right?

Yes, how that happen :lol:



#20 MPage

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Posted 21 June 2014 - 05:14 PM


 

 

Did the the two Squadrons of the 17th Cav then have reversed Red and White fields, like the the one on the bootom being for the 1st Squadron 17th Cav 82nd Abn Div?


 

 

 

OK...I found an example on ebay (perfectly oval, red in upper right) identified as 1st squadron, "type 3".
 




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