Nurses jump wings?

[Flo12]

Hallo all,

 

I just found the following jump wings (check picture), can anyone tell me if this can be real or not?

 

 

I am thinking of buying it, but I am not sure if this ever excisted and what the value might be.

The buyer tells me there is sterling on the back.

[Flo12]

 

This is a picture of the back.

[jayhawkhenry]

You photos are a bit small and fuzzy. IMHO they are not an authorized item, but were made up. Could be some thing made up overseas (although the clasp looks US) or could be civilian. Most medical corps insignia are gold color, I have seen brown and black "N" but not red. As for a value, like most things they are worth what you are willing to pay for them.

I am interested to see what some AB collectors think.

regards,

Henry

[Flo12]

You photos are a bit small and fuzzy. IMHO they are not an authorized item, but were made up. Could be some thing made up overseas (although the clasp looks US) or could be civilian. Most medical corps insignia are gold color, I have seen brown and black "N" but not red. As for a value, like most things they are worth what you are willing to pay for them.

I am interested to see what some AB collectors think.

regards,

Henry

 

 

eum, I was thinking the same.

 

Maybe a silly question: what do you mean with AB collectors? You mean airborne collectors?

 

anyway, I find it a very interesting piece, even if its not authorized, it still looks fine and worth having.

 

The thing that distracted me the most is the N in red, I have seen wings with an N , but never seen it colored red.

 

 

I wonder too what the other collectors thing, I'll appreciate their oppinion.

 

thans for your response jayhawkhenry

[Patriot]

Where did these come from? If you pulled them from a veteran's duffel bag, then there can be little dispute as to authenticity. However, if they came from a dealer, that can be a mine field. Sometimes, especially when it comes to the odd ball stuff, the SOURCE can offer a lot of insight into the authenticity of a piece.

 

I honestly don't know, personally, they look like they could be real. To my knowledge, no women during WWII ever earned a set of jump wings. What would they need them for? They would not jump into combat. Nurses attached to an airborne division would not be authorized to wear a set of wings, as they did not graduate jump school. While I don't see anything drastically wrong with the construction, other than what has already been noted, I would definitely be very skeptical, unless there can be some sort of supporting documentation.

 

Patriot

[Bob Hudson]

There was the 1942 movie Parachute Nurse about an apparently fictional parachute-trained nurse group. Then there's photos from the web that certainly beg for more detail:

 

 

 

Also I found as reference to modern airborne units have jump-qualified nurses in their medical detachments.

[Bob Hudson]

The British started jump training for RAF nurses in 1948 and Portugal established the position of parachutist nurse in 1961 and those women actually served in combat in Africa and the October 21, 1952 issue of Look Magazine had an article about "- Jumping sisters, parachutists, nurses, part of a 55 member para-rescue team in the Canadian air force, includes photo of one person’s parchute hung up in a tree"

 

Sp perhaps this wing is from another country or maybe the US did have some early nurse jump training and someone had the wing made.

 

Here's the British nurses:

 

[pconrad02]

The wings look cast to me , gut feeling, fantasy piece

[Patriot]

Nice information, Forum Support! I believe, though, that the context of these wings, compared with the regulations of the period seem to conflict. Women were not permitted to take part in combat, and since paratrooper jumps were generally conducted during combat operations, I don't see a reason why a WWII nurse would need to be "jump certified".

 

I am not familiar with the post war era, so there is a possibility that these could date from that period. I am speaking strictly from a WWII standpoint. Pin back wings were used after the war, so the potential is definitely there. However, as I have already implied, the chances of a WWII nurse having gone through jump school is very unlikely. Surely she would have been well known for going "above and beyond" what other women of the period were doing.

 

I also want to point out that Army Nurses usually worked in rear areas, and not amidst the flying shrapnel and the whirlwind of battle. This, of course, did not mean that women did not come under fire. There have been many instances of Nurses dying as a result of wounds, primarily from aerial bombing or artillery fire.

 

If one really wants to push the envelope that these are indeed WWII; I guess the argument could be made that these are an unauthorized set of wings that were worn by a nurse attached to an airborne division, albeit unlikely.

 

Women in combat - that's generally a modern development, save for a few instances in American history.

[Bob Hudson]

Nice information, Forum Support! I believe, though, that the context of these wings, compared with the regulations of the period seem to conflict. Women were not permitted to take part in combat, and since paratrooper jumps were generally conducted during combat operations, I don't see a reason why a WWII nurse would need to be "jump certified".

 

 

Did someone earn jump wings for bailing out during an emergency? At least one Army flight nurse did that during WWII? Parachute jumps could have been used to send medical personnel into areas not easily accessible by ground. I found another reference to Army nurse parachute training in 1942, but there's no context for it. The full article seems to be summarizing what was in a Long Island newspaper in November 1942:

 

"Advice Columns sympathize with women workers. Facing a bad situation, women are torn between families and the war effort. No such conflicts for Mrs. Marie McMillen trainer of parachuting nurses. Says she, "there's no thrill like jumping out of the sky. I prefer it to the far more dangerous subway travel. Imagine tied up in a cage below the ground and speeding along like a bat out of Hell."

 

The article is here: http://www.astorialic.org/starjournal/1940...2november_p.php

[Patriot]

I suppose the next question would be: Were these "parachuting nurses" given jump wings?

 

Obviously a very obscure reference...

 

I am still very reserved with this particular set...

[SGM (ret.)]

Although the photos are pretty fuzzy, there appears to be a "spray," "star" or some sort of other "wing-shaped" design between the red "N" and the bottom edge of the canopy with some design features extending below the "N" to the point where the shroud lines join. Is this a "winged caudicus" (sp?), and if it is, did the US Army use a "winged staff and serpent" design?

 

Better photos are in order, I think.

 

Mike

[101combatvet]

Need better pictures front and back.

[pconrad02]

Just another comment, the back of this wing has the distinctive look of one of the wings from www.1903.com. It could be a custom piece from there.

[SGM (ret.)]

Well, a little bit of research, and I've answered my own question (partially).

 

"Insignia of Arm or Service – Nurses will wear the appropriate Insignia of Service on both lapels of the Service Jacket, i.e. the gold-coloured Caduceus, 1 inch in height, with the letter “N” superimposed, 3/8 inch in height (either in bronze finish, or in brown enamel). "

 

No mention of the color red, though, for the insignia. Most references (all civilian) that I could find for the nurses' "N" have it colored blue.

 

Interesting...

[doyler]

Pretty intresting thread.I have not seen a nurses branch of service device in red.I do have a couple in a brown enamel.I also have a custom Combat Medics badge on a 78th Division uniform that is German made and the cross is red enamel.

 

The wings appear to me to be of some types I have encountered post WW2 as the pin on the back is mounted higher toward the top of the wings.A friend of mine said you could get pin back wings(even sterling WW2)at Ft.Benning PX in 1969.He said they still had a lot of WW2 material in stock.He was a collector then and latched onto some items.

 

As to medical personel who are jump qualified I have a couple items from an Army Air Corps doctor from my home town.His name was VanPatton.According to his family he was the first doctor in the Air Corps to be Parachute qualified.He was jump trained in Montana I believe at a place called Johnson Flying Service in or near Missoula Montana.The purpose of his training was to be able to reach a downed aircraft and supply aid and treatment.I believe it was more for recovery services after speaking more to one of the family members.His son who lives near me has some paper work he is gathering for me.

 

Back to the wing.I too would like to know the source of origin.Original?I dont know.Custom made?possible sweet heart piece?could be.Nurses were/are well known for getting things given to them or collecting item during the war.

 

If not original Im sure there would be more than one to surface.

 

Just some thoughts.

 

RON

[Flo12]

Pretty intresting thread.I have not seen a nurses branch of service device in red.I do have a couple in a brown enamel.I also have a custom Combat Medics badge on a 78th Division uniform that is German made and the cross is red enamel.

 

The wings appear to me to be of some types I have encountered post WW2 as the pin on the back is mounted higher toward the top of the wings.A friend of mine said you could get pin back wings(even sterling WW2)at Ft.Benning PX in 1969.He said they still had a lot of WW2 material in stock.He was a collector then and latched onto some items.

 

As to medical personel who are jump qualified I have a couple items from an Army Air Corps doctor from my home town.His name was VanPatton.According to his family he was the first doctor in the Air Corps to be Parachute qualified.He was jump trained in Montana I believe at a place called Johnson Flying Service in or near Missoula Montana.The purpose of his training was to be able to reach a downed aircraft and supply aid and treatment.I believe it was more for recovery services after speaking more to one of the family members.His son who lives near me has some paper work he is gathering for me.

 

Back to the wing.I too would like to know the source of origin.Original?I dont know.Custom made?possible sweet heart piece?could be.Nurses were/are well known for getting things given to them or collecting item during the war.

 

If not original Im sure there would be more than one to surface.

 

Just some thoughts.

 

RON

 

Interesting info , thank you all.

 

 

I have a few questions:

 

 

are (were) all nurses in the us arme female?

 

and secondly: If it is something that is made in some factory some where to be sold then how come I only find 1 of this wings? I have looked hours and hours on the inter net to find a second one of this... I just couldnt find one.

So if someone would have made it to sell, then why would there be only 1 ?

To me it seems it is something custom made.

But then the question is: for who ? And what the story behind it all?

 

I tried to contact the seller, but I did not get any response yet.

 

I would really like the know the story behind this.

[Bob Hudson]

Interesting info , thank you all.

I have a few questions:

are (were) all nurses in the us arme female?

 

and secondly: If it is something that is made in some factory some where to be sold then how come I only find 1 of this wings? I have looked hours and hours on the inter net to find a second one of this... I just couldnt find one.

So if someone would have made it to sell, then why would there be only 1 ?

To me it seems it is something custom made.

But then the question is: for who ? And what the story behind it all?

 

I tried to contact the seller, but I did not get any response yet.

 

I would really like the know the story behind this.

 

 

I posted a couple of photos above and a newspaper quote that refer to jump training for nurses in the US: they seem to imply that this may have happened, perhaps as a trial program, and if so, then these wings could have been custom-made in a very small quantity. So it is not something you can rule out.

 

On the other other hand maybe it was for paratrooper who was a Nebraska Husker -

 

[Flo12]

I posted a couple of photos above and a newspaper quote that refer to jump training for nurses in the US: they seem to imply that this may have happened, perhaps as a trial program, and if so, then these wings could have been custom-made in a very small quantity. So it is not something you can rule out.

 

On the other other hand maybe it was for paratrooper who was a Nebraska Husker -

 

 

Ah I see.

 

Silly question most likely: whats a Nebraska Husker?

 

 

and ps. about the nurses: were all nurses during wo2 female? And what about now?

 

I know that combat medics are male, but those guys arent real nurses right?

 

 

 

Anyway about the wings: I find it a very intersting piece.

 

I would really love to learn more about it and find the origin of this piece.

 

Too bad most military stuff gets sold without papers and memories...

 

I always find it very interesting to know more about the person who got it etc...

 

Thats why I prefer to buy military stuff that has a story behind it or documentation with it.

[sgtbrown]

Here are the Nurse insignia for various periods....

 

Tom

[Bob Hudson]

Here are the Nurse insignia for various periods....

 

The "N" on the jump wings is the right font, if not color.

 

 

Here's some information on a modern jump-qualified surgical teams, which would include nurses:

 

This need for a small, easy-to-insert surgical capability became evident during the U.S.-led invasion of Grenada in 1983.3,4 Then, the smallest Army unit that could perform major trauma surgery was a MASH. Because of its large weight and size, the first MASH did not make it into Grenada until 4 days after the invasion began. The Army then began developing the FST concept to meet the need for a small, easily deployable surgical facility that could perform trauma surgical procedures on U.S. casualties from the moment the fighting began. By 1986, Army surgical squads were airborne trained; they jumped in parachute operations during the invasion of Panama in 1989. These surgical squads needed to wait for aircraft, which carried their operating tables, anesthesia machines, and other heavy equipment, to land before they could access that equipment and set up their operating rooms.

 

The U.S. Army fielded two airborne (or parachute-delivered) FSTs in the early 1990s, the 274th Medical Detachment (Airborne) at Fort Bragg and the 250th Medical Detachment Surgical (Airborne) at Fort Lewis. These FSTs had the advantage of parachuting their operating room tents, generators, and equipment into the combat zone ahead of the paratroopers on parachute-rigged cargo trucks or humvees. These prototype FSTs gave wounded paratroopers immediate access to lifesaving trauma operations within the "golden hour" from the moment the fighting began.5 The FST also enabled U.S. casualties to survive long-distance air transport back to Europe- or U.S.based hospitals. Dr. Rob's initial FST concept was revived on March 26, 2003, when the 250th FST parachuted into northern Iraq with the 173rd Airborne Brigade, as part of Operation Northern Delay, to support the opening of a northern front in Operation Iraqi Freedom.6

 

And here's a more recent piece:

 

 

67th Forward Surgical Team Goes Airborne

 

Jan 18, 2008

BY Chuck Roberts, Landstuhl Regional Medical Center Public Affairs

 

Staff Sergeant David Beville, right, inspects the parachute of Spc. Andrew Finkler before a jump over Germany. The 67th Forward Surgical Team recently attained airborne status and was accordingly allowed to don the maroon beret. Beville is assigned to the 5th Quartermaster Company and Finkler is assigned to the 67th FST (Airborne). Photo by Len Winiarski

 

LANDSTUHL REGIONAL MEDICAL CENTER, Germany - During a ceremony held at Miesau Ammo Depot, Germany, 20 medical Soldiers from the newly designated 67th Forward Surgical Team (Airborne) donned maroon berets, distinguishing them as the only airborne forward surgical team in Europe and one of only five Army-wide.

 

"There are few opportunities to wear this beret," said Lt. Col. Laura Favand, 67th FST commander, during the December conversion. "We do feel honored."

 

The honor translates into an already lean and mobile medical team taking it to the next level. In their case, it means parachuting into combat with the medical specialties and equipment to provide immediate trauma care near the battlefield.

 

After initial medical aid by a fellow Soldier or medic on the battlefield, a forward surgical team is often the second level of care in places such as Iraq. The teams are designed for what is termed 'the golden hour" - the first hour after a Soldier is wounded when they are most likely to die from shock and bleeding. Favand said their main focus is to stop any bleeding and stabilize patients for transport to the next level of care - combat support hospitals.

 

The 67th FST (Airborne) can be condensed into six Humvees with trailers with enough supplies to remain self-sustained for 72 hours. About half the team and the most essential equipment is designed via parachute, with the remaining staff and gear landing with the aircraft and then linking up by overland travel. However, the 67th can tailor itself to match the projected needs of the military unit it accompanies.

 

Achieving the level of expertise to provide such support doesn't come easily. Earning their jump wings requires three weeks of intense training at Fort Benning, Ga., with its physical fitness standards geared more toward 18-year-olds.

 

At 40, Favand laughed that she was "the old lady of the airborne school" but successfully accomplished earning the jump wings she once wanted to achieve in Reserve Officer Training Corps but didn't have the opportunity.

 

And there's this selection from an early 1940's article about the training for the first Army flight nurses. It says they learned to pack parachutes, but this is from one of those websites that requires a subscription to read the whole article, so this is all we have access to:

 

 

So we do know that in "modern" times US Army nurses have been jump-qualified and a few may have been in WWII.

[Flo12]

very nice information.

 

and thanks a lot for the pics Tom

[Patriot]

Combat medics were not nurses. They were/are very similar to modern day paramedics. I have never heard of a male nurse during WWII, although it might be a possibility.

 

"Fantasy pieces" do not necessarily have to be mass produced. This could be a one of a kind piece, that someone put together on a rainy Sunday in 1990. The red "N" may very well be something other than American, such as Canadian.

 

The concept that a nurse might take part in a rescue/recovery scenario is a little sketchy. If it was a combat area, again, a female nurse would NOT make the jump. We have to remember that we are not talking about 2008. We are talking about the 1940's, a time when men were usually selected (Such as a male medic) for risky missions, such as a rescue/recovery.

 

Keep in mind that I always keep an open mind for new information that can revise conventional wisdom. It would certainly be a thrill to learn of nurses being used for such purposes.

[Patriot]

To expand on what has been posted by Forum Support:

 

Firstly, that is some very interesting information regarding nurses in the air. Army Air Force pilots, and air crew, did not have to go to jump school to fly in a B-17. They WERE however, instructed in the proper deployment of a parachute. As such, not everyone that might deploy a canopy would wear the wings.

 

I think that we are deviating too far away from the original purpose for the jump wing. The following excerpt is from the Army Heraldry page regarding jump wings:

 

"Basic Parachutist: Awarded to any individual who has satisfactorily completed the prescribed proficiency tests while assigned or attached to an airborne unit or the Airborne Department of the Infantry School; or participated in at least one combat parachute jump."

 

It is clearly an Airborne insignia, not Army Air Force, or any other dept.

[Flo12]

To expand on what has been posted by Forum Support:

 

Firstly, that is some very interesting information regarding nurses in the air. Army Air Force pilots, and air crew, did not have to go to jump school to fly in a B-17. They WERE however, instructed in the proper deployment of a parachute. As such, not everyone that might deploy a canopy would wear the wings.

 

I think that we are deviating too far away from the original purpose for the jump wing. The following excerpt is from the Army Heraldry page regarding jump wings:

 

"Basic Parachutist: Awarded to any individual who has satisfactorily completed the prescribed proficiency tests while assigned or attached to an airborne unit or the Airborne Department of the Infantry School; or participated in at least one combat parachute jump."

 

It is clearly an Airborne insignia, not Army Air Force, or any other dept.

 

I have received an answer from the seller and he simple states: "this is a wing wich was given to some army nurses that jumped with some paratroopers".

 

I am going to ask a bit more information.