WWI 77th Division armbands?

[jagjetta]

 

I have a couple of Signal Corps photos taken in France of a group of officers, many of whom are wearing armbands. The armband appear to have heavy soutache sewn on the top and bottom with the image of the Statue of Liberty between. Is there any reason to assume these armbands represent anything other than 77th Division affiliation? Does anyone know of extant armbands that look like this?

 

thanks,

 

JAG

 

 

[world war I nerd]

Hi Jagjetta,

 

I suspect that these officers are wearing a post Armistice variation of the AEF red brassard for a division’s general staff. According to the regulations general staff brassards were issued and worn in the AEF as follows:

 

General Staff
III. Special insignia to be worn by General Staff Officers, other members of General Staff sections, and Aides de Camp when moving about on duty in congested areas at the front, where such distinguishing mark is necessary to insure their free circulation, is authorized as follows:
To be worn on the left arm of the service coat, midway between the elbow and shoulder, an arm band of grosgrain silk, 3 inches wide, conforming to pattern on file with the Chief Quartermaster, and bearing the device of the General Staff embroidered in gold:

For the General Staff at G. H. Q. -- Red, white and blue.
For an army -- Red and white.
For a corps -- White and blue.
For a division -- Red.

 

The staffs of the Chief of Artillery of an army or corps are authorized to wear similar insignia, but bearing crossed cannons embroidered in gold in place of the General Staff insignia. The members of the staff of a Division Artillery Commander are authorized to wear similar insignia, the color of the band and clip being blue. The Chief Engineer of an army or corps, a Division Engineer Officer, a Chief Signal Officer of an army or corps, a Division Signal Officer and officers on the staff of an Infantry Brigade Commander are authorized to wear corresponding insignia, but without device in gold. The staffs of the Commander of the Tank Corps and of a commander of a Tank Center are authorized respectively to wear insignia similar to that of the General Staff of G.H.Q. and of an army, but without device in gold.

 

To be worn on the breast, slipped over the outer thickness of the overcoat or the raincoat, just above the second button, a spring clip about 4 inches long and about one inch wide, conforming to pattern on file with the Chief Quartermaster, and bearing the insignia of the General Staff in miniature embroidered in gold, colors corresponding to those for arm bands.

 

The above regulations fail to mention that general officers and their staff usually wore brassards trimmed in gold at the top and the bottom, much like those shown in the photograph, otherwise, the edges of the brassards were left plain.

 

It’s possible that the 77^th Division had general staff brassards made with the Statue of Liberty design embroidered in gold on them, rather than the prescribed general staff motif. Or if these brassards are being worn by the staff of the division’s chief engineer or signals or artillery officer or of an infantry brigade commander, it’s possible that they opted to have brassards locally made with the non-regulation Stature of Liberty on them to herald the division they belonged to.

 

Can you tell what branch collar insignia the officer’s are wearing in the photograph?

[world war I nerd]

Photo No. 01: Shown here are three general staff brassards for an Army. Note the gold edging for a general officer on the top brassard and that a gold edged brassard is worn by the Brigadier General in the portrait to the right. Also, only two of the three brassards feature the General Staff branch of service insignia embroidered in gold at the center.

[world war I nerd]

Photo No. 02: Shows a red general staff brassard for a division with the general staff insignia at center. At the bottom is the blue brassard worn by a division’s artillery commander’s staff with crossed cannons embroidered in gold. At top is a miniature clip on version of the division’s artillery commanders’ brassard that was to be worn in lieu of the full size brassard at the front so the wearer would be less conspicuous. To the left is a blue and white corps general staff brassard, also with the general staff device embroidered in gold.

[jagjetta]

Here's another photo showing the same style of armband:

 

[AustinO]

John, any idea who the MG is in your second photo? Who was in command of the 77th at wars end/1919?

[jagjetta]

On the first image, collar insignia is mixed:

 

 

The standing officer on the right has General Staff insignia and The Lt and Major appear to have Engineer insignia

[jagjetta]

John, any idea who the MG is in your second photo? Who was in command of the 77th at wars end/1919?

 

Austin:

I would have thought I could easily identify a two-star, but so far, haven't been able to!

 

 

JAG

[jagjetta]

I take that back....Pretty sure it is Major General Robert Alexander,

C.G., 77th Division from August 27, 1918, until the division was demobilized at Camp Upton, N.Y., ca. May 9, 1919.

[MAW]

I agree with the above posts.......Division staff officers.....nice pic.

 

"...Sam Browne belts and shoulder bars,

 

.........never have to ride in cattle cars......."

[KurtA]

Very interesting thread. Thanks for posting!

[Dr_rambow]

On the first image, collar insignia is mixed:

 

 

The standing officer on the right has General Staff insignia and The Lt and Major appear to have Engineer insignia

Note the rimless Corps of Engineers buttons.

[world war I nerd]

Jag,

 

It looks to me like they are indeed 77th Division staff officers wearing what is most likely red brassards trimmed in gold with the 77th Division's Statue of Liberty emblem instead of the General Staff insignia. Great photos. Now all you have to do is find one of those brassards!

[jagjetta]

 

It looks to me like they are indeed 77th Division staff officers wearing what is most likely red brassards trimmed in gold with the 77th Division's Statue of Liberty emblem instead of the General Staff insignia. Great photos. Now all you have to do is find one of those brassards!

 

I agree on the staff officer theory. As for looking for one of the 77th brassards, I have to say you now have me on the hunt of something else:

 

The staffs of the Commander of the Tank Corps and of a commander of a Tank Center are authorized respectively to wear insignia similar to that of the General Staff of G.H.Q. and of an army, but without device in gold.

 

 

NOW that is what I want to find!

 

Treat 'em Rough!

 

JAG

[world war I nerd]

Jag,

 

Just what every collector needs ... another Holy Grail!

 

I've only seen two general staff brassards for sale in the past 10 or so years, but they've got to be out there somewhere.

 

Maybe you'll get lucky and find one with a gold bullion tank embroidered on it ....

[world war I nerd]

Jag,

 

Here's a photo of your new Holy Grail, albeit a British one. You can see it here:

 

http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/30076895

 

It's a British WW I Tank Corps, Brigade HQ Brassard or as they called them ... "Armband". It would be very easy to see a U.S Tank Brigade General Staff member wearing one just like it.

[jagjetta]

Wow...now I know what it looks like! I have never seen one before. Thank you so Fuchs for finding and posting

 

Jag

[77th Inf. Div.]

Hello, just picked this up for my collection and thought the members on this thread would like to see the armband.

 

 

[daniel griffin]

Wow! What a great armband! Thanks for posting it.

[trenchbuff]

What a great find! That's a real beauty.

[sgtdorango]

Bazinga!....incredible find....mike

[jagjetta]

Wow...That is one great armband to show with the historic photo evidence!