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tiffany airship pilot wings


brad k
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post-195-1211600853.jpgwhat are your opinions of this wing? I saw an H&H wing like it sell on ebay a while ago for over $2000.! I got it in a group shop about 15 years ago with a nice luxembourg crewmember wing, I have some books but I'm no wing expert.
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I would hazard a guess that this is a cast reproduction with a fake Tiffany hallmark rather than a vintage airship pilot wing.

 

This is what a good one should look like: This one is die struck with a snowflake pattern on the back. also not the extension of the wing tips and notice on the other one, that the wing looks shortened because they lost this detail in the casting process.

 

Patrick

post-1519-1211602667.jpg

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Bob Hudson
I would hazard a guess that this is a cast reproduction with a fake Tiffany hallmark rather than a vintage airship pilot wing.

 

This is what a good one should look like: This one is die struck with a snowflake pattern on the back. also not the extension of the wing tips and notice on the other one, that the wing looks shortened because they lost this detail in the casting process.

 

Patrick

 

I've put these together in one image to make it easier to compare. What strikes me is the total absence of scalloped edges for the feathers on the one on top: the wing is smooth-edged all the way around.

 

tiffwings.jpg

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There are a few other differences. Look at the shape of the balloon, for example. Thanks for the side by side comparison. I was going to do it, but you beat me to the punch.

 

I have seen the first wing show up rather frequently at militaria shows. It is usually in a pot metal and has that distinctive divot in the center of the back. My feeling is that some of these wing patterns were copied out of one of the WWI wing books and that the reproduction artists didnt really have enough information to make a really good and convincing wing. The earlier, cast versions seem to have had some fake hallmarks added in an attempt to fool people. Some of the later versions of this wing are better looking and not so obviously castings. I fear that some of the higher end US wings are going along the same path as the Nazi badges with more and more fakes of higher and higher quality.

 

Patrick

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John Cooper

HI and thanks for posting - At first look I would have to agree with patrick since the reverse shows what appears to look like evidence of casting. You mentioned that you also had a LUX wing can you post that as well?

 

Thanks

John

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Bob Hudson
HI and thanks for posting - At first look I would have to agree with patrick since the reverse shows what appears to look like evidence of casting. You mentioned that you also had a LUX wing can you post that as well?

 

Thanks

John

 

 

I think the lower-case Tiffany mark is the most obvious sign of a fake here. I was thinking about this some more last night and if this is 15 or more years old then it pre-dates the internet: nowadays we can go on Google and instantly learn what a real hallmark should look like, but back then such research would have been nearly impossible for most people - even local libraries probably would not have had a book on such hallmarks.

 

Again, for quick reference, here's the one from that wing, which has the name and STERLING mark (note the uneven stamping on that) in different places and several examples of how T & Co. actually did it (from the link above).

 

tiffmarksfake.jpg

tiffmarks2.jpg

 

In our EGA (Marine Corps insignia) section there are some threads that identify counterfeit insignia based on hallmarks. Generally-speaking it seems as thoe companies which used hallmarks were pretty precise about it, so much so that you can often use the size, layout, font and text to date an item (I've researched a fair amount of vintage glassware and it's the same there). If Tiffany & Co. used all uppercase letters for 100 years, then they just would not switch to upper and lower case for one item or a few items, and the marks will always have a clean even impression. The poor impression of the word "STERLING" reminds me of the marks we see on the blades of fake and fantasy knives produced in places like Pakistan and India: very uneven with some letters stamped deep and others barely denting the metal.

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On some previous threads, their has been discussions about the Weingarden Gallery making and selling of reproduction wings and other insignia. They also show up on ebay all the time. To be fair, on the website and on ebay, the wings are always clearly said to be cast reproductions of vintage wings. Furthemore, the wings seem to be made with little attempt to try to fool the collector into thinking that they are anything but cast wings. THey are clearly made as cast reproductions. Fair enough, but it would sure be nice if they at least marked them as reproductions.

 

On the other hand, once these wings get sold, they have had a tendency to get into the "collecting" stream, as it were. At this point, these type of wings become a bit of a landmind for the novice collectors. Most people who have been lucky enough to handle or own the real thing are not likely going to be fooled...but most novice collectors will not have had the experience. With a little work to add a patina, a fake hallmark, maybe some work on a buffing wheel, some of the flaws may be hidden enough to confuse the uninitiated.

 

I think this may be a perfect example of this process. Here is a Weingarden wing offered as a copy of a vintage being offered on the website. It is the same (or very similar) as the one that started this thread, minus the TIffany hallmark (you can eve seen the same obvious casting flaws by the hinge). http://www.1903.com/productView.asp?productID=20

 

I have begun to see a few more of what seem to be the Weingarden reproductions showing up here and there and trying to be sold as the real deal--maybe in ignorance by somene who doesnt know better, sometimes on purpose by people who do. WIth the recent high profile/high money "Mystery Millionaire Militaria" auctions on ebay and Manions, I expect to see a few more attempts by some people to try to score by passing off fakes.

 

What is even more scary is that other copies of this wing exist that arent such obvioulsy castings. They are very hard to tell if you have never held the real thing.

It used to be that the only airship fake were the NS Meyers restrikes. Since those wings were made from the original dies, it was hard to know a real one from the good ones, but the pin (opening up >80 degrees) and the hallmark helped to wean out some of the bad stuff. Then, the fakers fixed those problems, and so it is all but impossible to tell the NS meyers good and bad wings. The Blackinton pattern of wings is now also being faked, frequently showing up with some fantasy hallmarks or hallmarks by companies that likely didn't make these wings. I have seen at least two types of fakes of the wing in this thread, the cast reproduction and the more advanced diestamped wing. Their is even an old fantasy fake gold colored USN airship pilot wing fake that seem to have been around for many years. I used to see them back east at militaria shows all the time, but rarely see them on Ebay any more. THey had a fantasy hallmark of "C" in a hexagon.

 

Patrick

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On any "Tiffany" insignia, I look at the clasp. That company tended to use a very unique type clasp - very exquisite with a little locking lever. I've mainly seen this on the rank insignia they made. I'm not lucky enough to own a Tiffany-made wing, but I would think they would have used something similar. The wing posted here has a big hefty locking clasp - not something i'd expect to see on a Tiffany-made wing.

Kurt

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John Cooper

Patrick - great post!

 

I can not tell you how many times I have seen the WG wings with a title & discription designed to provide cover for the seller... I think you right about adding an additional mark to the wing would be good.

 

It does not have to say reproduction but can be an extra mark for an easy ID. Now from Mr. Weingarden's point of view it adds to production cost and may impact his sales... a two way street.

 

Now any mark added can be removed but depending how it is done there is likely to be evidence it was removed and or covered up.

 

Since he is a member of the forum maybe he can add his thoughts on this topic.

 

Cheers,

 

John

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One other thing to consider is the supposed Tiffany wing is ugly. The proportions are all wrong. Tiffany were master jewellers and they would simply not produce something that looked ugly. When you compare the two wings side by side it is obvious which wing "looks" right. There are a whole host of problems with this wing but that is the most glaring.

 

 

Gary

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well thank you for the depressing news on my ugly wings, actually I've suspected they might not be right for a long time, I have no doubts now. yes I'll post the lux wings in a separate post, hopefully with better results. thanks again.

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Dear Brad,

 

I appologize if I was perhaps to harsh or zealous in discussing your wings. It wasnt my intention to make you feel bad. I have found that the gentlemen on this forum are some of the best. Ready to share knowledge and experience. Sometimes, I get carried away about my wing collecting, which is a passion honoring past generations and enjoying the art of wings...or cruel money sucking curse one step above grave robbing and pulling the wings off of flies...depending on who is talking (heh)

 

Patrick

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Dear Brad,

 

I appologize if I was perhaps to harsh or zealous in discussing your wings. It wasnt my intention to make you feel bad. I have found that the gentlemen on this forum are some of the best. Ready to share knowledge and experience. Sometimes, I get carried away about my wing collecting, which is a passion honoring past generations and enjoying the art of wings...or cruel money sucking curse one step above grave robbing and pulling the wings off of flies...depending on who is talking (heh)

 

Patrick

 

no need to apologize patrick I'm not realy that upset, if I was I would keep argueing with everybody trying to convince myself that they were real as I said I've wondered about them for along time and it's good to know what they realy are, I have enough good stuff in my collection to keep me happy and will probably post a few other things and get bad news in the future. brad

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I have heard that that is the most faked wing in existence, not necessarily the Tiffany example but the airship pilot wing.

 

In regards to the wings in the "mystery millionaire" group - there were many fakes discovered by our man John Conway. We intend to photo each one of these and will potentially publish it as a fake reference. The only thing is that when you do that, the fakers are grateful for the insight into how they can perfect their craft! Trust that these wings will not make it back out on the market.

 

Will post a group shot of them here soon, tomorrow hopefully, you won't believe how many there were and how well done they are. We had them out at the Kansas City show, so if you were there then you know what I am talking about. Scary to say the least...

 

Andrew

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