EIB vs CIB

[swag]

 

We had one instructor at the Infantry School who earned his CIB in Grenada, but preferred to wear his EIB, at least on his BDUs.

 

I went through WOC school with a guy who had CIB and EIB, but like so many others preferred to wear his EIB because it was harder to obtain. He said "all I had to do get the CIB was get deployed to a combat zone."

 

Kevin

[bertmedals]

I thought you all might enjoy a little EIB history, so here it goes. The first EIB was awarded to Tech Sergeant Walter L. Bull, A Company, 399th Infantry Regiment, 100th Infantry Division, on March 29th 1944 at Fort Bragg. General Leslie McNair, Commanding General US Army Ground Forces personally made the award.

 

100 NCOs of the 100th ID tested for the award at that time and only 10 earned it. The ten were interviewed to select the first awardee and Bull was chosen. At the ceremony McNair was quoted as saying in his remarks, “The Expert Infantry Badge being awarded here today has been set up by the War Department for U.S. Infantrymen who are trained and fit for battle. After the Infantryman has been in battle, the Expert Infantry Badge may be replaced by the Combat Infantry Badge.”

 

Unfortunately I have not been able to discover what happened to Bull but I do recall reading the story in either "Soldiers" or "Army" magazine a number of years back which included a photo of him.

 

There is a monument commemorating the first award on the main parade field at Fort Bragg which was placed there in April 1986.

 

McNair was killed by a friendly bomb in Normandy on July 25, 1944 while observing Operation COBRA.

[patches]

The EIB is indeed a very prestigious and hard badge to earn, but I think there was a great differance when you look at the earlier time frames, Late WWII-post WWII, Korean War-post Korean War, Vietnam War-Post Vietnam War 70s into early 80s, then the CIB was thee badge, and was a coveted badge. Just look at the Officer Corps of the Korean War, and the Zero Defects Army of the 60s, the CIB was a must have. The reality is back THEN when there was a shooting war going on or had recently or fairly recently ended, no one gave a crap about whether you had a EIB, the CIB was the supreme badge, whether you were a Junior EM or Senior Officer and every rank in between.

[Rakkasan187]

I thought you all might enjoy a little EIB history, so here it goes. The first EIB was awarded to Tech Sergeant Walter L. Bull, A Company, 399th Infantry Regiment, 100th Infantry Division, on March 29th 1944 at Fort Bragg. General Leslie McNair, Commanding General US Army Ground Forces personally made the award.

 

100 NCOs of the 100th ID tested for the award at that time and only 10 earned it. The ten were interviewed to select the first awardee and Bull was chosen. At the ceremony McNair was quoted as saying in his remarks, “The Expert Infantry Badge being awarded here today has been set up by the War Department for U.S. Infantrymen who are trained and fit for battle. After the Infantryman has been in battle, the Expert Infantry Badge may be replaced by the Combat Infantry Badge.”

 

Unfortunately I have not been able to discover what happened to Bull but I do recall reading the story in either "Soldiers" or "Army" magazine a number of years back which included a photo of him.

 

There is a monument commemorating the first award on the main parade field at Fort Bragg which was placed there in April 1986.

 

McNair was killed by a friendly bomb in Normandy on July 25, 1944 while observing Operation COBRA.

 

Just a little information about McNair Barracks:

 

McNair Barracks in Berlin was named after General Leslie McNair. McNair barracks was the location of the first US headquarters for US occupation troops. They arrived on July 4, 1945. The street that was located next to the barracks was called 4 Juli Platz or better known by Berlin Brigade Soldier's as the "4" Ring. This area was very famous for parades and other ceremonies that the US Forces conducted. This was also our tactical marshalling area and when alerted the Berlin Brigade infantry units would muster on the 4 ring and then move to our defensive positions throughout the city.

 

McNair Barracks before US occupation was the site of the AEG telefunken electronics factory, a 3rd Reich era complex. During WW2 research on some of the "miracle weapons of Hitler's Reich" was conducted here. One of the products developed and produced by the factory was radar guided anti aircraft gun control systems that could determine range of aircraft and select individual targets.

 

The barracks complexes had underground bunkers, and we used them to store ammunition that we would use for alerts. Basic combat load, small arms ammunition, and some LAW rockets. When alerted we would draw basic load from the bunker and once we got to our defensive positions we were to get the rest of our ammunition. We could walk through tunnels that connect our H style barracks buildings and we never had to really go outside. We could go from our company are to battalion headquarters by walking through the tunnel under the street.

 

Leigh

[CIBandEIBisAllyouNeed]

^{I think it's important to look at both awards with prestige. While I was in, I was very proud of my CIB because of the price me and my battle buddies had to pay to get them. I was in several firefights and in the 2nd Fallujah Battle. When we finally redeployed, we were offered the chance to test for the EIB. Honestly I was so burnt out by our deployment, that I really didn't want to participate. I also didn't like the idea of being in another high stress environment especially just getting back from combat. Either way, I obviously didn't have a choice so I went. Also I thought we'd be even more screwed because we were testing with another battalion (which is our rival). I had a lot of reservations because of all of this and it was last minute so we had about a week to prepare for it. I did have a lot of fun though. The land nav course was in some pretty difficult swampy terrain, but I loved it. I've always loved land nav courses, it's always been one of my strengths. Surprisingly a lot of people failed that portion. Also we had to march around three miles everyday to get to the actual site, which was funny because my 1st SGT was in my group and he'd gripe the whole way, because all of the officers were brought to the site in vans.}

^{My 1st SGT started out as a Scout and reclassed to Infantry hence why he was just now testing for the EIB. The best part of EIB is that most of the cadre are angry badge protecting E-4's. Anyways I was super paranoid and every station I was at, the cadre would taunt me and make me question what I just did, by saying "you still have time remaining" . But every station I completed gave me confidence in my ability. By day 2, I was determined to get my EIB, I studied my manual religiously the night before. I felt really bad for guys not making the cut, it seemed like everyone was dropping like flies. Grenades seemed to be the thing gigging everybody. Since I had used enough of them in combat, I was pretty good at judging the distances and proper procedures. I did see a Major fail that portion, which was funny, because he tried to pull rank on the cadre and protest, but the Colonel told him "you are a no go, leave my range". We started with around 550 soldiers and only 42 of us graduated. It was a great moment in my life, I made my unit proud and got a whole different kind of respect for myself.}

^{I actually took the CIB's off most of my uniforms and sewed on my EIB's. I was the only guy in my platoon who had one (except my PSGT) so I was glad to stand out among my peers. They did eventually make me start wearing my CIB again, which I honestly didn't want to wear because I don't want every cherry grunt asking a million questions about our battles.}

^{Nonetheless I love both of my awards, the CIB more or less brings up good and bad memories. The EIB is all good memories, conquering a tuff course without any no-gos, being apart of an elite group of Infantrymen "Being True Blue is an Honor" And it's nice to be considered a professional Infantryman. Every Grunt should strive and want that. It's like winning the Infantry superbowl. You should be proud to be an Infantryman regardless. Both awards are very important and are very Prestigious, I cherish them both but I have a soft spot for my EIB.}

[seanmc1114]

Does anyone have any idea why regulations don't allow the wear of both badges simultaneously? Is it simply an aesthetic issue? It seems that other than the similarity in appearances, they are really two unrelated badges in terms of qualifications. This really makes no sense to me, especially when you consider for example that the Parachutist Badge, Free Fall Parachutist Badge and Pathfinder Badge can all be worn at the same time. On the one hand, they all represent specialized qualifications and training even though in their most basic sense, they all indicate variations of airborne training.

[RedLegGI]

Does anyone have any idea why regulations don't allow the wear of both badges simultaneously? Is it simply an aesthetic issue? It seems that other than the similarity in appearances, they are really two unrelated badges in terms of qualifications. This really makes no sense to me, especially when you consider for example that the Parachutist Badge, Free Fall Parachutist Badge and Pathfinder Badge can all be worn at the same time. On the one hand, they all represent specialized qualifications and training even though in their most basic sense, they all indicate variations of airborne training.

 

My best guess as to the regulations would be that they're both infantry related exclusively. The other badges you mentioned are all separate schools with separate skill sets required. I would almost bet that when the regs were written, the EIB was viewed with more prestige and a 'career' infantryman could separate himself from others in that fashion.

 

[rdjmchris]

I earned my EIB in 1994, on my third try. I remember that during the reassemble the M-16 after the road march, my firing pin fell out as I was almost finished. But we had trained on that particular task, so I was able to get it assembled properly in time. After the grader congratulated me, I almost broke down. I was one of three in my company and one of 47 in the battalion to get it. I received my CIB in OIF2. But, I value my EIB above my CIB (to be honest I value my master wings above both of those). That being said, I wear my CIB because I got tired of all the senior officers asking why I wasn't wearing it.

[seanmc1114]

Interesting photo of a Special Forces staff sergeant wearing both the EIB and Combat Medical Badge. Is this authorized? Note he is not wearing an oval behind his jump wings.

[Rakkasan187]

Yes the Soldier is authorized to wear both the EIB and the Combat Medical Badge, they are skill badges from different categories:

 

The Soldier is not authorized to wear an oval if that person is not currently on jump status.

 

Here is the latest information:

 

DA PAM 670-1 March 31, 2014

 

A total of six combat and special skill badges are authorized for wear at one time on service and dress uniforms.

This total does not include special skill tabs or special skill tab metal replicas.

 

(1) Group 1. Combat Infantryman badges (three awards) Expert Infantryman badge

Combat Action badge (see fig 22–35).

(2) Group 2. Combat Medical badges (three awards) Expert Field Medical badge

(3) Group 3. Army Astronaut device (worn attached to any aviation badge) Army Aviator

badges(three degrees) Flight Surgeon badges (three degrees) Aviation badges (three

degrees) Explosive Ordnance Disposal badges (three degrees)

(4) Group 4. Glider badge Parachutist badges (three degrees) Parachutist badges

with combat jump device Pathfinder badge Military Freefall

Parachutist badges (two degrees) Military Freefall Parachutist badges with combat jump device; Air

Assault badge Sapper, Ranger, and Special Forces tab metal replicas

(5) Group 5. Diver badges (five badges)

 

Personnel may wear up to three badges above the ribbons or pocket flap, or in a similar location for uniforms

without pockets. Personnel may only wear one combat or special skill badges from either group 1 or group 2 above the

ribbons. Soldiers may wear up to three badges from groups 3 and 4 above the ribbons. One badge from either group 1

or group 2 may be worn with badges from groups 3 and 4 above the ribbons so long as the total number of badges

above the ribbons does not exceed three.

(4) Only three badges (groups 3 and 4), to include marksmanship badges, can be worn on the pocket flap at one

time. This total does not include special skill tab metal replicas. Personnel will wear the driver and mechanic badges

only on the wearer’s left pocket flap of service and dress uniforms, or in a similar location on uniforms without

pockets. Personnel may not attach more than three clasps to the driver and mechanic badges. The driver and mechanic

badges are not authorized for wear on utility uniforms. See paragraph 22–15a(3) for wear of badges on the pocket flap,

or a similar location without pockets.

(5) The order of precedence for combat and special skill badges are established only by group. There is no

precedence for combat or special skill badges within the same group. For example, personnel who are authorized to

wear the Parachutist and Air Assault badges may determine the order of wear between those two badges.

 

Page 254 of the DA PAM shows the wearing of the Combat Infantryman's badge and the Expert Field Medical Badge, similar to what this Soldier is wearing but reversed, instead of the CIB he has the EIB and the Combat Medical Badge instead of the Expert Field Medical Badge.

 

It does tend to get a little confusing.. Hope this helps out a little...

 

I would show pictures but I can't copy and paste the pictures..

 

Leigh

[rdjmchris]

Is this an official DA photo? Unless the rules have changed, the jump oval, leader's tabs, unit awards (unless permanent), etc are not authorized for wear for a DA photo.

[Rakkasan187]

Is this an official DA photo? Unless the rules have changed, the jump oval, leader's tabs, unit awards (unless permanent), etc are not authorized for wear for a DA photo.

It looks like a DA photo, all of the above mentioned accoutrements are not being worn by the Soldier. I would speculate it was for a promotion.

 

Leigh

 

 

[SFMike]

Couple red flags on the SF guy.

 

In the 60s we had to wear "unassigned" brass.

He is wearing Infantry.

He could be a SF medic who was Infantry before SF, but the brass is wrong.

He would not have had the opportunity to earn a EIB in SF or as a medic.

Also we normally never wore the bolo badges.

Some guys did gfo for the holllywood look for portraits and such.

 

We had to actively participate in a firefight to get a CIB-no 30 day deal.

[atb]

Looks like he is wearing the crossed arrows SF Branch of Service collar disk to me. From the Army Institute of Heraldry website:

 

"Branch Insignia

Two crossed arrows 3/4 inch in height and 1 3/8 inches in width all gold color.

The Special Forces branch insignia was authorized in 1987 for wear by personnel in the Special Forces branch. It was previously authorized in 1984 for wear by enlisted personnel in Career Management Field 18 (Special Operations). Originally (from 1890 to 1926), crossed arrows were prescribed for wear by Indian Scouts. During World War II, the crossed arrows were worn as collar insignia by officers and enlisted personnel assigned to the First Special Service Force."

 

Note the "SPECIAL FORCES" qualification tab, too. Also approved in 1987, I think.

 

 

[e19]

Definitely no red flags....He also wearing a 1st SF RDI - Regimental Distinctive Insignia - above his name tag, a practice which the Army started in 1981.

[Rakkasan187]

Nothing wrong with the Soldier in the photo. Nothing out of place..I agree 100% with e19..

 

Leigh

[jmd62]

Hey Guys,

 

My Dad received his EIB back in 1944. Could anyone tell me please what score was required in the Rifle marksmanship portion then? Also, do we know the percentage of men that qualified who attempted it?

 

Thanks!

James

[patches]

A Vietnam War take on the CIB vs EIB and the idea of other Branch Combat Badges. True this is only the input of two men, but no doubt feelings shared by thousands of Vets from WWII thorough the then current war in Southeast Asia.

 

These come from the 1967 ARMY GREEN Book, and are in reply to one Captain Painter who put forth the idea of other Combat Badges for other Branches. The article was from the August 1967 issue of ARMY MAGAZINE, don't have that issue, nor the other rebuttal letters from subsequent issues that where sure to be seen, whether Pro or Con, mostly Con I suppose.

[patches]

And the second one.

 

[patches]

Hey I think this is the Major Richard W. Hobbs who wrote in the second letter to ARMY.

 

http://www.vietnamwarhonors.com/index.php?page=directory&rec=10993

 

https://books.google.com/books?id=M9RoAgAAQBAJ&pg=PA299&lpg=PA299&dq=richard+w.+hobbs+vietnam&source=bl&ots=3mMULPTi8e&sig=ypkFcRZTidEAGTo4Jd5ex5zyUNg&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwje8sm-jNTOAhXCGh4KHauTDtkQ6AEIJDAC#v=onepage&q=richard%20w.%20hobbs%20vietnam&f=false

[seanmc1114]

Here's an interesting story about a proposal for a badge to recognize soldiers who have earned both the CIB and EIB so they don't have to choose between wearing one or the other. One of the proposals for the badge itself is the standard CIB with gold musket and wreath instead of silver. That would mirror the old design for the 4th award of the CIB approved in the 50s.

 

https://www.armytimes.com/story/military/2016/07/13/nco-pitches-new-award-grunts-whove-earned-cib-and-eib/87008208/

[dogfacedsoldier]

I recently came upon some research that showed a close relative of mine who served with the 18th Inf. I WWII, It showed he was awarded an EIB in 1944. He had been in combat since North Africa. He was prewar BIg Red One. In Oct. of 1944 He was awarded a CIB. By that time he had two PH's and two Bronze Stars for valor. It was weird to see some people had received a CIB, then suddenly their CIB was rescinded. Very strange. The same way with Silver Stars and Bronze Stars. No explanation, just an order to rescind them.

[BILL THE PATCH]

In ww2 was getting the EIB just as hard or was it just basic infantry training. My dad earned both. But seemed more proud of his CIB.

 

Sent from my XT1031 using Tapatalk

 

 

[rosieres64]

My Uncle earned the EIB and the CIB during WWII.

[seanmc1114]

Interesting photo of a female South Korean soldier being presented the EIB.