Ultra Rare 813th Tank Destroyer

[manayunkman]

This exact patch is in 2 other threads on this forum.

 

A small stack of them came out of Harrisburg, Pa. and all but one sold before 2001.

 

Came from Major John Putt.

[Steverino]

Garth, and to the nameless gentleman who wrote his piece to Bob Chatt.

 

It is precisely my point Garth. I said that Merrow edged patches were made DURING WWII (actually as early as 1941 before our entrance into the war), and were not made again until the late 1960's. NOT DURING THE 1950'S. Therefore, the 813th patch in question had to have been made before 1945 or after ~1968.

 

I asked to be shown examples of any ME (Merrow-edged) patch from the 1950's. I'm still waiting!

 

PatchJohnson

[vzemke]

1950's dated boy scout patches exist with merrowed edge. Same goes for Red Cross patches. Likely Police and Fire patches as well. The technology was out there at the time.

 

So, theoretically it's possible that the unit had these made by a company that mostly made non military patches and made them with a merrowed edge.

[vzemke]

Ok, I know you guys are going to dismiss this example because it's not an Army patch, but just to show that at least someone was out there making cloth patches with a merrowed edge during the 1950's:

 

 

(patch photo from ebay)

[KurtA]

I think the key is to find a 1950's era (or later) patch made EXACTLY like the patch in question in order to raise the possibility the patch in question may not be WW2 era. Vance's post shows "merrowed" patches did exist in the 1950's. But, the construction of the patch in question is very distinctive and different from later era merrowed patches I have seen - it has a VERY TIGHT merrowed border with no "pig tail" on the reverse and some long reverse feeder threads (just like the 506th PIR).

[tredhed2]

Have been doing some research as I have always been in the tank battalion camp, not the TD. I know enough about DIs and that Minuteman crest (the 314th FA is the only other unit I can think of w/ the Minuteman crest) to rule out the TD bn. I knew the original approval looks like the DI image I posted. The merrowed edge threw me, as Patch Johnson says, military patches were just not made w/ them in the 50s. This is also another patch we never see on a WW II patch blanket, in a WW II patch collection, or on a uniform (well, maybe until now)

 

Here is a partial selection from one document:

 

And, one thing I know, having collected for a number of years, is that PA is one of those states where any unit in its military jurisdiction has an insignia - SSI, DI, flash, tab, decal, - something. I contacted a PA miltiary historian, and here is his reply:

 

...."The patch is a souvenir type patch, used on jackets, ball caps, etc. never worn on the uniform. And his thoughts, with merrowed edge, possibly a reunion item, as the unit did not serve long in the ORC / USAR before being deactivated (sic). The major armor unit was a Bn of the 77th armor, and the when the Div was changed to an ARCOM, the 77th went away and the 6/68 armor became part of the 157th Inf Bde that had all the combat elements of the 79th ID".....

 

It appears that the merrowed edge would rule out it as a 50s insignia, and certainly not a 60s, since it had been inactivated. Yes, I know we are dealing with an opinion, not documentation. Those who wish to maintain their beliefs are certainly entitled to do so, but there appears to be enough information to make for a challenging discussion.

 

It isn't a WW II TD patch, there is no documentation to support it being worn in the 50s and it couldn't have been worn in the 60s, when it was most likely manufactured.

 

[firefighter]

The ASMIC Armor-Cavalry patch catalog has it as 813th Tank Bn used between 1945-65.

[tredhed2]

The ASMIC Armor-Cavalry patch catalog has it as 813th Tank Bn used between 1945-65.

PM sent

[Bill K]

How about this from the Lebanon (Pennsylvania) Daily News July 24, 1964:

 

"Battery D, of the 3rd 'Automatic Weapons Battalion, 813th Artillery, are joining other units of the battalion froni Lancaster, Hershey and Columbia. The unit from Lebanon is commanded by Capt..James R. Kohl. . During 4he two-weeks encampment, the 213th will operate entirely with organizational equipment with" the exception of the self-propelled twin 40 millimeter anti-aircraft guns Which-will remain at the home station".

 

http://www.newspapers.com/newspage/5515131/

 

I don't have the Sawicki AAA book to add more but the M19 Gun Motor Carriage (twin 40mm) and M42 Dusters (twin 40mm) both have tracks. Would also seem to solve the patch construction era problem. There were still a few high quality patches made in the US in the 1960's.

 

Bill

 

 

[tredhed2]

There is nothing in either of Sawicki's AAA or FA books to indicate any insignia for 813th anything. He doesn't even show a connection w/ the 813th AAA being in PA.

 

Besides, it appears as if there is a typo in the article, w/ 813th Arty being sandwiched between mentions of the 213th Arty 2x....

[firefighter]

I just looked in Kurt Keller's EMBLEMS OF HONOR.This book covers Armor Cav, Tank Destroyer & Constabulary insignia from WW1-EARLY Cold War.The 813th patch is not listed under armor or Tank Destroyer.This suggest to me the insignia was used in late 50's-60's.This would match on what I found in the ASMIC catalog.I am far from an expert on these patches and my guess is from information that I found.

[mortaydc60]

It looks like I started a spirited discussion. The research has been great and looks like it is narrowing this down to be post war as far as the written info takes us. But what seems to be bolstering my original camp is the construction of the patch which to me still screams WW2. Now as far as Kurts excellent book is concerned the fact that it is not listed in the book does not mean necessarily that much because the 813th TD IS listed in the Official Unit Campaign and Citation Registration with 7 campaigns mentioned. I am sure there are some of the forum that have patches that are not in Kurts book, so just because it is not listed does not mean it does not exist. I be willing to bet that Dave K could add a small book just with his Constabulary patches and tabs alone. The big point made by the research is the Miinute Man on the patch which is for post war Reserve Units and thus means TANK BN NOT TD. My hope is that it is early post war and that is the best I could wish . Mort

[firefighter]

It looks like I started a spirited discussion. The research has been great and looks like it is narrowing this down to be post war as far as the written info takes us. But what seems to be bolstering my original camp is the construction of the patch which to me still screams WW2. Now as far as Kurts excellent book is concerned the fact that it is not listed in the book does not mean necessarily that much because the 813th TD IS listed in the Official Unit Campaign and Citation Registration with 7 campaigns mentioned. I am sure there are some of the forum that have patches that are not in Kurts book, so just because it is not listed does not mean it does not exist. I be willing to bet that Dave K could add a small book just with his Constabulary patches and tabs alone. The big point made by the research is the Miinute Man on the patch which is for post war Reserve Units and thus means TANK BN NOT TD. My hope is that it is early post war and that is the best I could wish . Mort

 

 

There were a lot of Tank Destroyer battalions in WW2 that are listed in the campaign register.That doesn't necessarily mean that unit had a patch.And you are right not every reference book has every patch made or used.I was just stating the information I found.How you or somebody else interpret it is your business.

[Patchcollector]

I came across this interesting thread and was wondering if any more info has been found regarding the age/ID since the OP.

[mortaydc60]

To rehash this post; the unit existed during WW2 and has campaign credits and there is a patch that has characteristics of WW2 construction. I tend to believe it is WW2 or just post war and others believe believe early 50's. Regardless it is a rare patch. Mort

[BILL THE PATCH]

Great looking patch.

[manayunkman]

This patch and several others came from Major John Putt who served with the Pennsylvania 104th Cavalry and lived on Fishburn in Penbrook part of Harrisburg.

 

He started with the 104th in the 1930's right before they started replacing horses with Indian motorcycles.

 

He retired from the 104th in the 1950's.

 

I sat and chatted with him many times about the things I got from him.

 

The patch in this thread and the others were sold to me after he passed so I could not talk to him about it.

 

Is it my understanding that everyone agrees that this is a patch from the 813th TD ?

 

So the only issue that hasn't been settled is the period it is from ?

 

Could it be something from the Pennsylvania National Guard since the original owner was in for over 20 years ?

 

The uniform from the end of his NG service had the armor cavalry collar brass and may have had the more modern Governor's Troop patch.

 

I hope that this info might help solve any mysteries.

[lamarhooten]

Here is my addition to the quest for an answer! Thought I would bring this back into the light.

[Bearmon]

I don't believe the Minute Man should be the deciding factor on age here is the DUI for the 328th IR. inactive after 1946, From WIKI

[vzemke]

You bring up an interesting point with the 328th IR DI/crest, but I think it goes the other way. The 328th had a minuteman at the top of their insignia because of their lineage as part of the Organized Reserve before WWII, "ready to be called up". That would be out of place for the 813th Tank Destroyer BN as it had no pre WWII or specific reserve lineage. It became a reserve unit AFTER WWII as a Tank Battalion.