Jump to content

Austrailian Made USMC Camo Helmet Covers


2ad82recon
 Share

Recommended Posts

Ok Guys and Girls this must have been discussed before but myself and other big USMC collector here in the UK were discussing the possibility that the Austrailian made USMC cammo helmet covers MAY not be fakes and they might be right.

 

What is the boards take on these ?

 

Regards

 

Lloyd

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Greg Robinson

My opinion is that some may be legit but some are not. I still remember seeing a canvas bag for sale in a store years ago. It was made along the lines of a musette bag and had markings that best i can recall were "USMC / Made in Australia / 1943" I should have bought it but I had spent $1200 on a Raider stiletto so was feeling a bit broke at the time. Today, I believe it was legit. There most definitely were USMC gear items made over there during WW2.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

My opinion is that some may be legit but some are not. I still remember seeing a canvas bag for sale in a store years ago. It was made along the lines of a musette bag and had markings that best i can recall were "USMC / Made in Australia / 1943" I should have bought it but I had spent $1200 on a Raider stiletto so was feeling a bit broke at the time. Today, I believe it was legit. There most definitely were USMC gear items made over there during WW2.

 

And I found this in a very good article about supply problems in the Pacific during WWII:

 

Quartermaster supply operations in the Pacific faced a challenge of daunting complexity. The task presented them meant, in essence, having to support a new kind of war in a most difficult environment, on an unprecedented scale, against a formidable and tenacious foe. What’s more – at a remarkable distance away from the U.S.

 

What were some of the common elements of success? Certainly local procurement in almost all areas of supply helped the Quartermaster Corps meets its many needs, by providing for direct purchase abroad. Our major allies in the region, Australia and New Zealand most notably (along with Hawaii and many of the South Pacific island nations) made available vast amounts of goods and material, and furnished much of the labor needed to carry out such an immense undertaking.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thats what i mean Bob.....my buddy and i were discussing this tonight.I mean Austrailia made Fighting Knives/ Canteen Knives/Boondockers/Web Gear/Battle jackets/First Aid Packets/Insignia and Blankets for the USMC so why not camo helmet covers !!

 

surely the logistics of being 30 miles away (1st and 2nd Marine Divs) was easier than being 6000 miles away...right ?

 

Regards

 

Lloyd

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thats what i mean Bob.....my buddy and i were discussing this tonight.I mean Austrailia made Fighting Knives/ Canteen Knives/Boondockers/Web Gear/Battle jackets/First Aid Packets/Insignia and Blankets for the USMC so why not camo helmet covers !!

 

surely the logistics of being 30 miles away (1st and 2nd Marine Divs) was easier than being 6000 miles away...right ?

 

Regards

 

Lloyd

 

Read that article I quoted from - http://www.qmfound.com/qmcpacific.htm -it was more like 8,000 miles because of the island hopping the ships had to do: Instead of the 55 to 60 days it usually took for a supply ship to go from New York to Liverpool, the trip from San Francisco to Brisbane often lasted four or five months...

 

That having been said and knowing that Australia had a - for them - very large textile industry at the beginning of WWII and that it geared up considerably for wartime production, read this article about why CRYSTAL LTD "Australian-made" USMC camo covers may be fakes: http://www.steelpots.com/sppages/crystalltdcover.htm

 

and this page has a photo of one of the CRYSTAL LTD labels: http://www.steelpots.com/sppages/collector%20alerts.htm

Link to comment
Share on other sites

usmcraidergirl

Very interesting articles! I have long felt that it would not be impossible to invision the Aussies made helmet covers, since we know they did uniforms, patches, etc.

 

I agree in that IMO not all "Aussie made" helmet covers are bad. That said, even before reading the Armold article mentioned above, I am suspect of those Crystal Ltd. marked covers. My opinion is best summed up by Chris Armold's article: "the problem comes down to limited facts and a lack of clear provenance about these covers." I would not want to buy one and always have in the back of my mind "is it real?" After reading Armold's article and seeing the covers themselves, it seems pretty clear IMO that one would be taking quite a risk buying one.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Greg Robinson
Very interesting articles! I have long felt that it would not be impossible to invision the Aussies made helmet covers, since we know they did uniforms, patches, etc.

 

I agree in that IMO not all "Aussie made" helmet covers are bad. That said, even before reading the Armold article mentioned above, I am suspect of those Crystal Ltd. marked covers. My opinion is best summed up by Chris Armold's article: "the problem comes down to limited facts and a lack of clear provenance about these covers." I would not want to buy one and always have in the back of my mind "is it real?" After reading Armold's article and seeing the covers themselves, it seems pretty clear IMO that one would be taking quite a risk buying one.

 

I agree with Chris Arnold that the Crystal Ltd covers are suspect but Chris has, in the past anyway, gone on to say that NO USMC camouflage helmet covers were EVER made in Australia. But keep in mind that he's been wrong before. About ten years ago he had quite a few USMC collectors upset because he insisted that the version of camo helmet cover which had slits on the crown and a slit in each flap was a fake. It took a long time before he would accept that version. So we all make mistakes and that Steel Pots article was written many years ago. Not sure how he feels about this today

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 months later...
General Apathy

Hi Everyone, here is my story on these Aussie covers. Back in the late 1970's I bought an M-1 helmet from an estate sale. It was a regular helmet WWII outer and liner, upon inspecting it later at home I lifted out the liner, folded flat between the two parts was this Australian made and dated camo cover. It has slight wear along a line were it was folded over the lip of the helmet, and a couple of small snags. Interestingly the two side sections have a different background color surrounding the spots, it has the eagle stamp on the green side only, there are the WWII two ribbons above the eagle. It is stamped on the brown side ' U.S.M.C., Crystal Ltd, Australia 1943' . Now my thoughts, there were very-very few collectors back in the 1970's it would not have been worthwhile printing off this material, there would have been no quantity sales. It was hidden in-between the two parts of the helmet, so effectively it cost me nothing, it was from a deceased veteran, what would he want a ' re-production' for, it was used and had signs of wear. It's not to say that some sucker has not copied these in the last couple of years as they do with all other items, but I believe the pattern and this example I own to be real. Talking of re-productions in a surplus store in Belgium just before Christmas I couldn't believe that there were re-productions of an item that surplus dealers had difficulty selling after the war. The ' cartridge round catcher bags' they chopped them down attached two handles and turned into tool bags for commercial use. Now there are copies of these ???? Why ( Lewis )

post-344-1168529134.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

In the steel pots article Chris Arnold states that no covers were stamped with an E.G.A. during the war, but if you look in sailors in forest green there is a 1944 dated picture of a marine wearing a helmet with a E.G.A. stamped cover so he is wrong on that point at least

Link to comment
Share on other sites

That is just one picture...it could possibly be the exception and not the rule. I've looked for years at most books and pictures and have yet to find evidence of EGAs on covers.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Wayne what about that one "Austrailian" made cover that Lester has..the one that shows wear...staining and looks right....

 

We have agonised over that one for years and my take on it is that it is a "rightun"

 

Noted authors have been known to be wrong before mate...in the light of new evidence !!!!!!!

 

Regards

 

Lloyd

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Lloyd I agree that lesters is a rightun, as for authors and new evidence an example is Jim Moran,in 1992 in a military illustrated article he stated that no photograpic evidence to his knowledge existed to the use of p44 camo, in 1993 he had pictures in his book showing it on iwo jima.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think we need to get some pictures of Lesters ....Austrailian made cover for proof Wayne...

 

Ken thats some pretty damn near irrefutable evidence of Austrailian covers too.

 

But until someone finds the documented purchase order or contract order we are never truly going to know

 

Regards

 

Lloyd

Link to comment
Share on other sites

General Apathy

Lloyd I like to think that how long I have had this cover, that it was a find ( in-between the liner and outer ) so it cost nothing, it has wear and a couple of nips on it, it came from a veteran estate sale so even the helmet was peanuts, it has to be right. Somewhere in my bits and bobs I have a copy of the blueprints for the second pattern camo helmet cover, if it turns up I would like to post it.

 

We both know Skillman who has just moved to Australia, I am going to task him with tracing anything he can about the Crystal Company, but as he's only Inf- Armored orientated his heart may not be in it. What about you moving over there I know you would put heart and sole into it. If he could find out what town the company was based in, even if the company has gone it might be possible to trace some of the women machinists that made them. ????? ( Lewis )

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thing is Ken...Lester has one that appears to be "right as rain"..right aging..right wear patterns the works....

 

I know of at least 2 more..i was looking at one today owned by "Big Joe" and that looked right as rain too.

 

Greg(Kabar) you will know the phrase "speaking to you " dont you buddy ! And Lesters speaks to me

 

I am sure i read somewhere that Crystal Products apparently were out of Melbourne Austrailia.

 

 

Perhaps i had better go book the tickets

 

Regards

 

Lloyd

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Greg Robinson

GOT A QUESTION.......... the Aussie made covers....the one that people feel are legit....are they made out of herringbone twill (HBT)? That seems to be an issue with some of these covers. Chris Arnold and Mark Reynosa both have a problem with non HBT camouflage helmet covers. And there's an fake that has been around for years made out of cut up USMC wartime camo shelter halfs and of course they're not herringbone twill.

 

Greg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Greg Robinson
Hi Everyone, here is my story on these Aussie covers. Back in the late 1970's I bought an M-1 helmet from an estate sale. It was a regular helmet WWII outer and liner, upon inspecting it later at home I lifted out the liner, folded flat between the two parts was this Australian made and dated camo cover. It has slight wear along a line were it was folded over the lip of the helmet, and a couple of small snags. Interestingly the two side sections have a different background color surrounding the spots, it has the eagle stamp on the green side only, there are the WWII two ribbons above the eagle. It is stamped on the brown side ' U.S.M.C., Crystal Ltd, Australia 1943' . Now my thoughts, there were very-very few collectors back in the 1970's it would not have been worthwhile printing off this material, there would have been no quantity sales. It was hidden in-between the two parts of the helmet, so effectively it cost me nothing, it was from a deceased veteran, what would he want a ' re-production' for, it was used and had signs of wear. It's not to say that some sucker has not copied these in the last couple of years as they do with all other items, but I believe the pattern and this example I own to be real. Talking of re-productions in a surplus store in Belgium just before Christmas I couldn't believe that there were re-productions of an item that surplus dealers had difficulty selling after the war. The ' cartridge round catcher bags' they chopped them down attached two handles and turned into tool bags for commercial use. Now there are copies of these ???? Why ( Lewis )

 

I own a mid 1960's vintage "mitchell" pattern camo helmet cover which has different color shade on the two pieces. I believe it was made this way. That feature would suggest it being legit since the fakers would pay more attention to such details. But with a legit USGI cover mass production of such a commonly used item wouldn't be halted due to such a trivial flaw.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

General Apathy

post-344-1168821722.jpgHello again everyone, just one question will you Americans go to bed now, it's one o'clock in the morning over here, and I keep saying I am off to bed and then you ask another question.

 

The Australin cover I showed in an earlier post is plain not HBT. This one I am showing now in this post is a second pattern ( came in a bunch of 100 I had, some shown earlier post ) it is made of HBT one section and plain material the other section. However this may not be possible to see. ( Lewis ) p.s. Good nite

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Greg Robinson

From what Ken has shown us I think we can shoot the "all aussie camo helmet covers are fake" theory down in flames. We still need to exercise caution when buying these, especially so if non HBT material, but it would appear that using herringbone twill fabric was not a rigid requirement. And the position that the US Marine Corps would NEVER have had them made in Australia is probably flawed.

 

Greg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Greg Robinson
Hi Everyone, here is my story on these Aussie covers. Back in the late 1970's I bought an M-1 helmet from an estate sale. It was a regular helmet WWII outer and liner, upon inspecting it later at home I lifted out the liner, folded flat between the two parts was this Australian made and dated camo cover. It has slight wear along a line were it was folded over the lip of the helmet, and a couple of small snags. Interestingly the two side sections have a different background color surrounding the spots, it has the eagle stamp on the green side only, there are the WWII two ribbons above the eagle. It is stamped on the brown side ' U.S.M.C., Crystal Ltd, Australia 1943' . Now my thoughts, there were very-very few collectors back in the 1970's it would not have been worthwhile printing off this material, there would have been no quantity sales. It was hidden in-between the two parts of the helmet, so effectively it cost me nothing, it was from a deceased veteran, what would he want a ' re-production' for, it was used and had signs of wear. It's not to say that some sucker has not copied these in the last couple of years as they do with all other items, but I believe the pattern and this example I own to be real. Talking of re-productions in a surplus store in Belgium just before Christmas I couldn't believe that there were re-productions of an item that surplus dealers had difficulty selling after the war. The ' cartridge round catcher bags' they chopped them down attached two handles and turned into tool bags for commercial use. Now there are copies of these ???? Why ( Lewis )

 

Except for the shading differences between the two halves this cover is a very close copy of one I got from Lloyd a few years ago. Mine has the exact same EGA on it But lacks any maker/date markings.

 

Greg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

General Apathy

Hi Ka-Bar, regarding the non HBT material in both the Australian and the Second pattern one I have shown thats half plain & half HBT, the material is far too soft and thin it is definately not chopped up camo tent material. ' The show goes on ', Cheers ( Ken )

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Greg Robinson
Hi Ka-Bar, regarding the non HBT material in both the Australian and the Second pattern one I have shown thats half plain & half HBT, the material is far too soft and thin it is definately not chopped up camo tent material. ' The show goes on ', Cheers ( Ken )

 

My chopped up camo shelter half made into a camo helmet cover is easy to spot once you know what to look for. But it's actually sloppily made and ought not to fool a knowledgeable collector. But over ten years ago when I bought this cover along with a pristine mint fixed bail M1 shell w/ pristine mint mid war liner I was still learning. . It came from a totally honest part time militaria dealer who got it as part of a collection he had purchased. My opinion is both the dealer and the previous owner had been fooled.....the overall appearance was truly very nice and it also fooled me for a while. It took emailing back and forth between Chris Arnold and Mark Reynosa to finally positively ID it as a fake. We negotiated a settlement so that I could keep the M1 helmet rig...it was that nice....and even keep the fake cover.

 

Greg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Schnicklfritz

Here's a question I have about the Aussie covers. The camo pattern looks to be exactly the same as the original WW2 US made pattern. How or would this be true if the cover was totally foreign made? I imagine there would be some differences in the pattern print between the Aussie made one and the US made one. Ken, could you compare the two patterns?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Greg Robinson
Here's a question I have about the Aussie covers. The camo pattern looks to be exactly the same as the original WW2 US made pattern. How or would this be true if the cover was totally foreign made? I imagine there would be some differences in the pattern print between the Aussie made one and the US made one. Ken, could you compare the two patterns?

 

I believe they're virtually the same. Been easy enough to just copy the pattern from a P42 cammie uniform.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...