Engineer pocket knives

[Still-A-Marine]

Western marking.

 

 

[Patchcollector]

Cool knives and a great study

[dustin]

So far we looked at some variations of the Engineer or Camp Knife and for the most part they are virtually identical having the same size, shape, weight and blade configuration. This would make sense if all were manufactured under the same specification but that is not the case. Each service or branch that procured these knives used their relevant specification when purchasing. Most of the knives pictured here were manufactured and delivered to multiple services and branches. It is understandable that the separate services have their own specification but why are they all alike? There were hundreds of patterns available in the commercial market to choose from in which deviations could be requested. If you really take a look at the patterns used by the US military in WWII arguably the most common pattern being the 4 blade Camp Knife then maybe the 2 blade Navy utility followed by 3-4 other patterns like the mountain knife, electricians knife and a couple variations of a 3 blade.

One could conclude each service or branch merely copied another and in some cases this is true. An example being a service approaches a manufacturer on a proposed knife replying with a statement they are already manufacturing a knife for X service and we would be happy to quote you for this model. This answers the question why are they all alike in part.

When reading period literature most often than not pocket or jackknives are referred to as Scout Knife, Scout Type or some variation of. Even in the USAAF Air Sea Rescue Equipment Guide the 3 blade knife is officially listed as Knife, Boy Scout. Why is the term Scout mentioned so predominately in Army and Navy literature?

The term Scout undoubtedly is used as a general descriptive reference but has a deeper imbedded meaning for the military. The best illustration comes from Naval Aeronautical Specification M-3 Amendment N dated Nov. 1939, this a general specification for life rafts. Paragraph D-3c states;

"The scout type knife shall be equivalent of the official Boy Scout Knife, respectively, as shown in the current issue of the Equipment Number of the Local Council Exchange of the Boy Scouts of America."

Not just any knife can become an official Scout Knife. The BSA had very rigid guidelines in patterns and workmanship and must be authorized before it can be branded with a shield and/or etched blade essentially a stamp of approval. Their official Scout Utility patterns were known for their durability, quality and universal properties.

Page 52 of the 1939 Local Council Exchange, dont these patterns look vaguely familiar? With some minor deviations we see a bulk of the pocket knife patterns procured by the US military in particular numbers 1494, 1496 and 1122.<br />

[dustin]

Prior to the entry of WWII for the United States demand was low and it was not an uncommon occurrence even documented for units to perform “local purchases”. In spec M-3 note the word “respectively” as in saying “as long as it is within these parameters”, quite loose! As the US approached the war a trend to officially formalize, adopt and standardize pocket knives began. If we look at a general progression of standardization we see the Engineer knife spec. 17-170 in 1940, Med Dept. Navy Camp knife 41-J-001 1941 both spec’s identical to the 1496 exchange knife and with other manufacturers only differing in can opener design. We see the AAC 3 blade knife in 1941 like that of the 1122 switching to a pen blade replacing the punch. Once the United States entered the war demand escalated then we see the Navy Dept. Camp knife spec 41-J-4 in 1942, NavAir Camp knife spec M-575 in 1943 so on and so forth. Bottom line is that the official Scout knives were the standard of the day and it is only logical the US military would repurpose them for the war effort. Most manufactures merely removed the official branding of BSA off the knives then were sold to the government including whatever deviations may have been required. This ultimately answers the question “Why were they all alike?” and the use of the term “Scout Type Knife” so predominately in Army/Navy literature. Prior to the dates of official standardization a wide variety of knives were used by the services and branches even the use of Scout knives with shield as these would have been purchased from the open market but only in early photographs, when found, will demonstrate. It became necessary for the services and branches to formalize a single type pattern for quality control purposes and to assure availability of.

[dustin]

Often in researching we end up with more questions than answers and at times we find that there are no 100% correct definitive answer. It is also beneficial to have multiple reference resources providing checks & balances. In the article Camillus Knives That Went to War it illustrates a three blade knife specifically a pattern with stamped USN shield. It is known this knife was procured by the Aviation Supply Office under contract 288s-24170 for a quantity of 54,000. In the article description it states “Navy Aviation and Ship Stores Resale Utility Knife”. Examples of an identical 3 bladed stamped USN shield knife can be found tang stamped Imperial presumably procured by the ASO like that of the Camillus counterpart. From accumulative information I do not believe this pattern of knife, especially with stamped USN shield, to be a resale knife as stated in the Camillus article or at least definitively so.
Listed below are several resources for stock listings of knives in aeronautical catalogs of the era. This is an attempt to illustrate two points.

Class 41 –Aeronautical Materials, Spare Parts and Equipment. May 1945
Jack Knife-Boy Scout, three blade including one heavy cutting blade, one screw driver, and one bottle and can opener blade. Has 3 5/8-inch bone stag handle with riveted shackle ring. Stk. # R41-K-365

Class 83- Catalog of Aeronautical Materials, Spare Parts and Equipment January 1945
Knife-One Jack Knife provided with each life raft, stowed in supply pocket. Each knife is provided with a 3 ft. lanyard of twine. (Spec. M-575) Stk. # R41-K-365

Air Sea Rescue Equipment Guide August 1944
Knife- One jackknife equipped with a 3’ lanyard is provided with each Life Raft and stowed in the supply pocket. This knife is also included in the equipment of the Shipwreck Kit and Back Pad Kit. Spec. M-575 Stk. # R41-K-365

 

The first entry is relative to the USN stamped shield knife in that it describes it quite well aside from specifically mentioning the “shield”. Being in the ASO supply catalog it could be requisitioned by all aviation activities. It is my belief these knives in large part were not a resale knife but rather a standard stocked item. Camillus made 54,000 and assuming Imperial manufactured a similar amount that is a rough guesstimate of 100,000 for resale? That’s a lot of knives to sell. I am merely pointing out that an identical knife was available in the aviation supply system leaving room for discussion in that it is both a resale and issue piece. Here is how I think the Camillus listing should read more accurately.
Navy Aviation Utility Knife for issue and Ship Stores Resale Knife essentially the orders between Camillus and Imperial were split to serve both functions.
The next point is relative to the stock numbers, all three listings state R41-K-365. R designates it as an Aeronautical item, 41 designates the specific Federal Standard Stock Class, K represents the first letter in the nomenclature and 364 is a sequential number assigned in the 41-K block. One could assume they are referencing the same knife since only one gives a specific description. The next two entries have a specific listing Spec M-575. This is Naval Aeronautical Specification M-575, in short NavAir spec. paragraph E-2 states:
"Each knife shall have 4 blades and a clevis. One large cutting blade of a spear pattern approx. 2 ½” long. One leather punch blade. One can opener blade. One combination screw driver and bottle opener blade."

We have two distinctive different knives utilizing the same stock number which lends to “no 100% definitive answer!” The knife M-575 is the naval aeronautical version of the Engineer/Camp Knife.

[skautdog]

Dustin, Gary,

 

Thanks for the informative posts! This thread is another keeper for future reference.

 

Gary, maybe my use knives will stop breaking now!

 

Dustin, what is the availability and price range of the type and condition knives you've displayed?

 

Thanks,

 

Ken

[dustin]

Almost all Bureau of Aeronautic emergency rescue kits and pneumatic life rafts have a pocket knife as a standard component referenced as the Knife or Jackknife M-575 and available for issue from the aviation supply system as stock # R41-K-365.
The back ground to the M-575 originates within specification M-3N as quoted in post #28. Spec M-3 is a general specification covering 4 sizes of pneumatic life rafts and was the only standardized emergency rescue kit within the BuAer from 1929 until the M-592 Back Pad Kit in late 1943. As stated in paragraph D-3c of spec M-3N a Scout type knife is to be utilized. During this era the Scout knife would have been acquired in either by the contractor, local purchase or from the standard stock system which following the same guidelines. The BuAer maintained the policy of acquiring Scout type knives respectively through the duration of 1942 but several issues occurred. Cutlery manufacturers were no longer making knives for the commercial industry so supply was running short or to the extreme none were to be had and due to the volume required there was a lack of quality control on the knives that were being obtained by contractors and local service activities. The BuAer then began steps to formalize one specific type of jack knife for emergency equipment in early 1943.

The original draft submitted for Naval Aeronautical Specification M-575 resembled the Army Mountain Knife in that it included a clip type main blade and flat stock steel clevis which was to be stamped USN, this knife never went into production. Imperial persuaded the BuAer to amend the specification to conform to the already existing US Army specification 17-170 for the Knife, Pocket, Engineer, Four Blade, With Clevis. In essence the standardized specification M-575 reads the same as the 17-170 in all construction details. These knives included a spear main blade, screw driver cap lifter, can opener and leather punch.

 

Though the specifications were virtually identical the nomenclature was not. The BuAer referenced their version as Knife, Life Raft this is because and as stated above there was no other standard emergency kits at that time and the knife only had one intended purpose to be included in the compliment of accessories for M-3 series life rafts. The M-575 Life Raft Knife was standardized in April 1943. A subsequent amendment was made to spec M-575 standardized September 1943 making some minor changes in construction detail finishes to which I don’t think anyone could tell eve with mint examples. The nomenclature then changed on spec M-575A to Knife, Emergency, Pocket this is due to the fact that the BuAer had two new standardized emergency kits that utilized the M-575, the Shipwreck and Back Pad Kits. It now became a general utility “emergency” knife.

[dustin]

 

Dustin, what is the availability and price range of the type and condition knives you've displayed?

 

Thanks,

 

Ken

 

I think the availability for the most part could be considered fairly common on most patterns if you look regularly and price, I think that is sometimes relevant to manufacture. The price range varies but lets say from 20-60$ depending on the venue you buy it in. It is tough to sum it up in a package. I rate the condition of my knives to from good-very good...so extremely difficult to find "mint" examples of folders

 

[dustin]

In a letter from Camillus to a Lt. Kaiser of the BuAer dated August 11th 1943 it states:
"This is just to advise that the knife which we are delivering on contracts for the Bureau of Aeronautics through prime contractors is identical to the knife delivered to the Engineers, with the exception that the shield is left blank instead of stamped U.S.A."
For a short clarification on the term through prime contractors, this simply means that the knives are being shipped from the Camillus to contractors of equipment requiring this type of knife i.e. life rafts, shipwreck kit and back pad kit.

 

The paragraph prior to this quote specifically calls out Army specification 17-170. The Camillus Cutlery Co. Army Engineer Knife is very common to find with the production figures ranging into several million and found in three variations which include USA stamped shield, blank shield and no shield. The most common stamped shield was for US Army Engineer/QM contracts, the blank shield is for BuAer contracts and the no shield was for US Army Quartermaster contracts for general issue and PX. The Engineer Knife manufactured by Camillus included jigged bone handles with brass linings and brass handle pins and by October 1942 they were manufactured with all steel and with a 4 line stamping on the blade tang Camillus/ Cutlery Co./ Camillus NY/ USA. Late war Engineer knives will include a three line stamping and brass components. This model was only manufactured with bone stag and plastic handles also known as scales.
The following are examples of the blank shield models. First is a 4 line and the second is a late war 3 line.

[dustin]

The M-575 was often sealed in a waterproof foil lined Kraft paper wrapper. This 4 line Camillus is from a M-592 Back Pad Kit still sealed which still has the original protective paste.

[dustin]

Though some what redundant these are samples jack knives that have been known to have been supplied to the BuAer as the jack knife M-575

[dustin]

So I was asked "Is there anyway one can tell if a knife was USGI issue or a commercial knife?"

Only on a few knives is there a tall tell indication of USGI with the stamped shields, these would have been specific requests by the procuring agency but the bulk of knives procured did not have these indicators. There is a certainly a learning curve and has taken some time ,a process of elimination if you will, to narrow the field. Most manufacturers made very little adjustments from their commercially produced models. The best clue would be the use of all steel construction. In 1942 the War Production Board (WPB) placed brass on the critical materials list. Brass was a common material in all pocket knife manufacture so all steel is a good start. Brass being on the critical materials list did not mean that knife manufacturers could not use brass just that they were no longer able to secure the material. Many companies still had stocks of brass parts which they used up. This opens the door for minor variations in regards to materials used such as the use of steel liners and spring spacers but with brass handle pins or brass liners but with steel spacer etc. Brass began to be used again in knife production by the end of 1944 so this will make it difficult to determine early or late war production. Can openers can also be helpful; every knife manufacture had their own style of opener. In 1944 Imperial introduced the eagle beak safety can opener and by the end of the year other companies began using this design but not consistently until the post war years so eagle claw or beak openers are a good indicator of late to post war.. In 1943 Camillus introduced their design of a safety can opener in a two piece construction as seen on the Navy 41-J-4 or Utility knives pictured at the end of page 1. All previous can openers required an upward stroke which was said to open up hands better than cans; the new “safety” openers used a downward stroke. Tang markings can be useful as well and will be able to place an era on a knife. Camillus used a 4 line stamping in the prewar and inter war years then in 1944 introduced a 3 line bold marking. This 3 line marking carried through to the immediate post war years making a slight adjustment adding a short under line below CAMILLUS. The Kingston MADE IN USA is a bit easier as these knives were only produced during the war. In the immediate post war era starting in 1946 Kingston was associated with Schrade-Walden and began using the brand name Kingston. Imperial Prov. RI stamping was used from 1936 to 1952. Pre 1936 the full spelling of provenance was used and in the post war era a crown was added over Imperial on their Kamp King line of knife. It is important to learn manufacturing methods pre-war, war time and post war on each brand. Through this method you learn more about what is not correct but guides you to the correct answer.

[Frank Trzaska]

Many years ago my friend Bernard Levine told me to "read the knife" and that "Rules of thumb will poke you in the eye". In this case both apply. Dustin has laid out some outstanding information the we should all read and learn from. Read the knife, do not jump to conclusions.

 

At the start of the US entry into the war the Cutlery Limitation Act was put into effect. The factories were limited to 10 patterns they made prior to the war only for the duration. The "scout" pattern knife was a good useful pattern that the military selected and ran with for many purposes. Don't forget the cutlery companies were in business and want to sell as many as they could. They were also restricted to making knives as they made the prewar, no development or changes so they could keep up with production and push out as many as possible. Hence the many shields and bails used by different companies and nothing standard. Later in the war the "Pocket Knife Industry Advisory Council" joined together to come up with a common design, eliminate shield and other minor items to speed production without breaking the laws. Still later yet they invented the "MIL-K" patten all steel knife that the USMC adopted early and went straight into production with to give one to every Marine. The Army did significant tests with several boards prior to adoption (moved the can opener location, made the bail longer, etc). Even though the industry wanted to lower costs and speed production in fighting inside the Army ruled it out. The Signal Corps refused the new knife as the screwdriver didn't lock so they kept the TL-29. The Mountain folks required a Phillps head so they refused to adopt it and kept their 5 blade. The Air Corps, Paras and Gliders refused it as they want to retain the M2 auto opener. etc, etc. The Medical department even refused it as it could not be sanitized thoroughly and insisted on keep the Mess cutlery in the meat can!

 

In any case industry tried to standardize, speed up production and lower cost but were over ruled by Generals inside the Army who wanted their own patterns.

 

The downward stroke safety can opener was invented and Patented but the government doesn't have to follow the patent laws so all makers used that pattern in the late war. After the war the manufacturers had to revert back to their own designs for a short period unless they licensed the design. Albert Baer got around that by purchasing several cutlery companies and using it in all of his then owned companies.

 

In any case, Dustin keep up the fantastic work, full speed ahead young man!

 

All the best

Frank Trzaska

[skautdog]

Frank,

 

As always, thanks for sharing your expertise!!

 

Ken

[dustin]

Thanks for the addition Frank with some great facts and points giving us the topping in a nut shell. The MIL-k knife being the end all eliminating all the variation.

You make a good point when saying "Don't forget the cutlery companies were in business...". In the few correspondences I have from knife manufacturers the content always seems to be revolving around ..."we are already making this" "May we make some suggestions" in the end it is the contractor attempting to ease the burden on the production line.

[dustin]

A new addition to the engineer/camp knife family a Camillus 14S25 described as an Army general purpose knife and same as an S13 except with punch instead of a pen blade. This knife includes brass spacers, long shackle or clevis, new can opener and is a 3 line.

[dustin]

The 14S13 mentioned is a navy utility knife.

[dustin]

Another Navy utility knife is the 14S26 which are basically the same as the S13 but utilize the old short shackle or clevis.

This example is a 4 line tang stamp

 

This example is an ID'd 3 line

[dustin]

Update: In a recent fact finding mission I discovered that the above knives in posts 42 & 43 were manufactured under Navy Dept. specification 41-J-5, date of exact spec unknown. What is known is that spec. 41-J-4 covers the E-Z opener and other 4 blade camp knives with all steel and bone or plastic scales. The changes in 41-J-5 eliminates bone and includes brass spacers.

[Bob Hudson]

This is a Navy Utility/Camp knife by Imperial. This knife changed very little being manufactured some years after the war then I made an interesting observation after handling many of them and I think the can opener is the key to differentiate from WWII from post war. Imperial applied for the patent on the Eagle beak can opener in November 1944 with the patent assigned in December 1945. Note on this can opener it says "PAT PEND", technically the patent was only pending between Nov.1944 and Dec.1945 so it safe to assume this was manufactured between those dates

.image.jpgimage.jpg

 

Thanks for that info.

 

I just picked up a small box of folding knives from a 1942-1972 retired Marine Colonel: there was an engineer knife with the USA shield, another Camillus engineer knife with no shield (but with a cosmoline-type coating), a US MARINE CORPS silver utility knife, and this Imperial, which seems to be the Navy version. It appears to have never been used.

 

 

 

 

 

My buddy bought the USA and USMC marked knives before I even got around to photographing them, but here's the cosmo-coated version:

 

 

 

[bobcat87]

Wow Dustin! The Official Boy Scout knives really do seem to be a predecessor to the Engineer Knives purchased by the military. I am starting to see the same type of pattern exhibited even earlier with WW1 era knives and Boy Scout knives, especially the New York Knife Company.

 

New York Knife Company was the exclusive producer of the Official Boy Scout knife until 1923 when Ulster arrived on the scene and started producing official knives. During WW1, it appears(by observation only) that a variation of the 2nd design two blade Official Boy Scout Knife designed by New York Knife Company became the most broadly issued knife of WW1. It was manufactured by New York Knife Company and many other manufacturers.

 

It is my belief that the New York Knife Company actually manufactured the first 4 blade Engineer Knife from 1917-1922 and it was an exact copy of the same configuration 1st pattern Official Boy Scout Knife with an upside down shield labeled "ARMY KNIFE".

 

It seems that the second pattern 2 blade Boy Scout Knife would have been much cheaper to produce, which is why I believe that the 2nd design was chosen over the first design 4 blade Boy Scout Knife to be manufactured in large quantities for the troops.

 

Your research is excellent and I eagerly await any new information.

[stealthytyler]

Here is my grandfather's Camillus. He was in the Navy during WWII. Were these standard issue for sailors?

 

 

 

 

 

 

[dustin]

That is the knife detailed in Navy Department Specification 41J4, and yes it was the standard issued utility jackknife for naval personnel until the adoption of the four bladed type in 1944. Nice to have an attributed example.

[stealthytyler]

That is the knife detailed in Navy Department Specification 41J4, and yes it was the standard issued utility jackknife for naval personnel until the adoption of the four bladed type in 1944. Nice to have an attributed example.

 

Is 41j4 a list of all issues gear for sailors in WWII until 1944? I would love to get a copy. Do you have one?

[dustin]

No, 41J4 is a specification for the knife only. It would detail the requirements to contractors for the manufacturing of the knife. That knife from your grandad is in a technical sense, a jackknife 41J4.