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WW1 Shreve & Co. Wings...


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Thanks for sharing John. Those look real good. It's hard for me to resist cleaning them a little, but i'm not going to. I got real lucky finding these.

 

To clean or not? Either option might provoke an interesting debate.

 

Cliff

post-4542-0-07858700-1388774977.jpg

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I'm with Cliff here. Frankly, I don't understand the tizzy assocaited with polishing a wing. You may WANT your wings with 90 years of tarnish from sitting in a box on them or you may WANT them to look like they did with the pilot wore them, but either way it doesn't, in any way, no how, no way, effect the real value of the wing.

 

Trust me, polished or unpolished, clean as a whistle or gunky as a pile of turds, a Shreve WWI pilot wing is STILL going to be worth somewhere in the nighborhood of 1500-2000$ (depending on who is selling them). These aren't coins, stamps, comic books or Chippendale furniture that are ruined when you mess with them.

 

Honestly, if Cliff were to say to you, "Hey, want to buy a nice military aeronaught wing?"--how many of you would say, "well, I'm gonna pass, cause you screwed them up by polishing them, but if you have one that is black as tar, then I'd be interested!".

 

But, then again, I tend to handle my wings so much that I have been known to fondle the patina right of them. :lol:

 

Patrick

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I also agree with Cliff and Patrick. I see both sides of the coin on this one. It comes down to personal preference. Frankly, I like a vintage badge which displays a healthy amount of silver or gilt luster on the high points...and modest patina in the grooves and recesses which outlines and enhances. (How's that for a middle of the road opinion!)

 

In displaying some of my wings in 12" x 16" Riker Mounts, I like to include other facets of my aviation collecting interests such as period photographs which depict the same or similar wings...or Son-In-Service window banners which depict embroidered wings or Air Service logos. In displaying wings in this fashion, you don't want to clean your wings with any type of chemical or strong soap because it will accelerate aging of the photo's emulsion and cause foxing even with no apparent moisture inside the display case.

 

The same is true with cleaning the inside class of a display case with Windex or similar ammonia enhanced products. Even after you wipe that glass lid dry and place it back over the top of a case containing a grouping of old photos, paper documents or period leather identification holders or wallets, that dried residual ammonia may not affect your wing, but it will slowly wreak havoc on the other items.

 

Just be careful with your other collectibles, including old patches, should you decide to clean your winged badges.

 

Russ

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  • 3 months later...

These are great wings not only because of the company that made them nor the city they are from but the construction and the need for the weep holes in the reverse. Her are some photos to match yours against.

 

Cheers

John

 

attachicon.gifShreve1.jpg

Sorry for the way late question but just going over some old threads and have to ask John this question and it may benefit other members as well. Being unfamiliar with WW1 wings but totally understanding what a "Weep Hole" is for other process'. Why would the wings need weeping holes? Are they hollow or is it for soldier points or something? Being somewhat of a nut with a fascination of how things are made, how is this particular set of wings made so different?

 

Thanks,

Mark

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Patchcollector

OK,I'm just a wing newbie,so my input probably has zero(or less) importance,but I do feel tempted to comment on some posts..

1.The wing in post #26.I like the uncleaned version better than the cleaned one.I feel in this case the patina added favorably to the "character" of this piece.

The cleaned one looks too "new" to me.

2.My take on the "to clean or not to clean" controversy is this;I would take each wing individually.In other words,if the patina or"buildup"

did not accentuate the piece in a positive way,then I would consider cleaning it,or sell it and find another to my liking,if possible.

3.Last but certainly not least;gotta love the Grumpy cat.

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Thanks John.

 

Now I am just scratching my head trying to think of a "good" reason for making them this way. The only thing I can think of is to use less silver and make them lighter. I would also think that this simply increased the cost of making them offsetting any savings by using less silver. Soooooooo.....I think it was to make them lighter or, more plausible, that they were just off there meds when they designed the die's and no one asked any questions on down the line. :D VERY cool though!

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  • 3 years later...
Forum Manager

We have just cleaned up this thread and BANNED the member who wants to start fights on every thread he adds to.

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Sorry for the way late question but just going over some old threads and have to ask John this question and it may benefit other members as well. Being unfamiliar with WW1 wings but totally understanding what a "Weep Hole" is for other process'. Why would the wings need weeping holes? Are they hollow or is it for soldier points or something? Being somewhat of a nut with a fascination of how things are made, how is this particular set of wings made so different?

 

Thanks,

Mark

 

If you look carefully at some of the edge shots in this thread you'll note that the wings comprise top and bottom pieces that are carefully soldered together (maybe even die-trimmed post assembly). The weep holes allow gasses to escape when the 3 separately made upper pieces are soldered to the single back-piece.

 

Regards

Mike

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LuftStalg1

 

If you look carefully at some of the edge shots in this thread you'll note that the wings comprise top and bottom pieces that are carefully soldered together (maybe even die-trimmed post assembly). The weep holes allow gasses to escape when the 3 separately made upper pieces are soldered to the single back-piece.

 

Regards

Mike

 

Thanks Mike, yeah I figured it out in the last couple years. ; )

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I am not an expert on Shreve made Great War wings so I cannot speak to the authenticity of the ones shown, however I do know something about how very high quality wings are made by forgers. Unknowledgeable forgers tend to use the casting process, but knowledgeable ones use something called the electroforming process. In electroforming, an authentic badge is obtained. The forgers then pour a refined liquid polymer on the front that fills every nook and cranny perfectly then peal it off. They they do the same to the back. A very thin coating a conductive liquid is sprayed inside these perfect negative images and silver is then electroplated into it. The electroplating is carried on until a thick layer of silver has been deposited. These two silver halves - the top and the bottom - are then removed from the molds and their edges are trimmed. The top and bottom halves are held together making a hollow reproduction. The two halves are soldered together around the edges. The resulting badge is then hand burnished and finished, a pin is soldered to the back and the badge is then dipped into various chemicals that tarnish and age the surface. When done by the kind of professional forgers that exist in many places, especially in parts of Asia and in some former Soviet countries that do not have much in the way of controls on forgeries, the resulting badge can be very difficult for even experts to spot. One of the telltales is in some badges that have not been finished perfectly there is a ghost of the soldering around the edges.

 

I am not saying this particular Shreve wing is not good, but it has some indications that would make it worth some serious study to determine if it is real or an electroforming forgery.

 

I know a bit more about German Great War pilot's badges and while I do not have a scientific study of them it is my impression that somewhere around 99 percent of the ones you see on Ebay or in most dealer's stocks are not real. Given the prices being paid for US wing badges of this war it would not surprise me to learn that there could be a similar number of forgeries to real ones on the market and even in many collections. I know for German ones I would not consider buying any that did not come with rock solid provenance. I would welcome hearing from anyone here on their knowledge on the state of the number of forgeries to real US wing badges from the Great War.

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Kimo,

 

I can assure you (as much as anyone can, I guess) that the wings that started this thread are totally 100% legit. There are actually 2 variants of this wing. One, like shown is marked Shreve and has 1-3 weep holes in the back plate. I suspect, but have no proof, that the back plate was added as part of strategy to strengthen the wings. My suspicion is that the wings are made in the "chiche-style" which left them rather sensitive to breaking. Thus, the addition of a stronger backing plate with the pin-hinge attachment.

 

The second variant is almost, but not exactly, like the Shreve pattern. I have never seen the second one hallmarked other than "STERLING" and is made up of 3 solid and separate pieces (the wings and center shield) very carefully joined. Maybe it was a later variant of the first type?

 

As for fakes, I have been hearing about the "perfect" fake WWI wing for some time from any number of sources. There are actually a fair number of fake WWI wings out there, but I have never seen a Shreve-faked wing that wasn't fairly easy to identify, especially if you have handled a few good ones. Never say never, of course, but I suspect that the new laser and computer generated dies may be the source of new, hard to determine fakes, like what you see for some of the Australian wings. Still, like the Australian wings, the margin of error is pretty low, because as soon as they start flooding the market with fakes, people quickly catch on and stop buying them. And these technologies are rather expensive to develop and employ. I once asked a artisan jeweler about how hard it was to make reproductions and he said that "why would I try to fake a ~1000$ wing using 10000$ worth of expensive equipment that you have to try to peddle off on ebay and have a limited number of them that you can sell, when you can make a uniquely crafted original 5000$ piece of jewelry that you can openly sell as many as you can in your own store?"

Of course, there are some bottom dwellers who shall not be named or who live in China that have nothing better to do than try to make fake stuff to sell to the rubes. But usually the quality of their wares reflect the quality of their character. Shreve was/is a very high end crafter of fine silver, copying their skill is likely not all that easy.

 

Here is the second, solid pattern Shreve-like wing.

post-1519-0-41379400-1494188298_thumb.jpg

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Also, it is unlikely that the forger is the actual main seller of the wings. Some one on ebay may sell a few, but most people are wary of "to good to be true" deals on ebay. It seems to me that typically the fakes start flooding in to the collector markets via a handful of militaria dealers of low repute. And they probably bought the fakes at a discount, else they wouldn't make any money off of them. It doesn't take long for the collectors market to become aware of the fakes and they start shunning them. I remember when the first Angus and Coote fakes started showing up at various militaria shows. Within a few months, most serious collectors got the news. I see fakes of these being offered on ebay all the time, but I have little confidence that they are actually selling the fakes to anyone other to someone who just wants a place filler.

 

Also (and I want to stress that I am only using this as an example, not as an attack on he who shall not be named...so please indulge me moderators), you can go to he who shall not be named' website and buy all of this wares that you want for about 100$ an item. He is upfront that what he is selling are museum copies and not the real deal. Yet, on the other hand, you can frequently find his stuff on ebay or in other militaria dealers Ricker-mounts being sold for hundreds (and in some cases thousands) of dollars in mark up. Thus, I suspect that unless he who shall not be named is getting a kick back, he actually doesn't make much money on what he sells. Thus, the low quality of his stuff?

 

Those types of reproductions seem to only fool the newbie collectors, although I have seen some more serious guys get stung once or twice. I can promise you that if all of a sudden 50 Shreve pilot wings showed up on some buys Ebay auction site operating out of the Serbia, or "that guy" who has been selling nothing but fake TR stuff for 25 years at the Max shows starts peddling 4-6 Shreve wings every time he sets up.... he isn't going to be retiring soon on all the money he is going to be raking in! They may burn a few guys early on, but the word will get out. So, the profits (such as they are) really aren't there for "good fakes".

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Thanks pfrost! I very much appreciate reading your thoughts. My comments on electroforming were general ones and I accept your judgment that these particular wings are correct. My knowledge about specific wings such as this Shreve one is quite limited and I am always grateful to learn from experts on how individual makers made their wings.

 

My one area where I might take a bit of exception is to the comment from the jeweler that making a forged wing would cost $10,000 in equipment though. I would think this number would be entirely accurate if one were speaking of making a die and hob using the old hand carving techniques by someone in the US or other developed country where such expertise and labor costs are appropriately quite high and so the cost to reproduce a wing would be cost prohibitive. However my comment was about electroforming where for the cost of some liquid silicone/polymer, an electric current source, some silver oxidizing chemicals and a half an ounce of silver combined with some expertise on how to use these things, some serious study on how fakes are spotted, and temporary access to an authentic badge, and living in a permissive country where forgery is not a priority to control, one can make a near undetectable forgery. In other words, for less than $50 in materials one can crank out several near perfect fakes using electroforming since there is no die, and the resulting fake will be the exact size and have all of the exact details, and not be porous like cast copies are. Of course there are incompetent forgers out there cranking out easily spotted junk, but not everyone in the forging business in places like China, Vietnam, other east Asian countries, or in the former Soviet Union countries is incompetent. Some are extremely knowledgeable and capable and know to not flood the market with their poison or distribute through only a few shady dealers. And of course this is not just in the wing badges arena, it is in all sorts of other metal collectables including coins and ancient art and other things. And my understanding is that the true criminal experts at forging are keeping up with technology to make their junk ever more undetectable by ordinary non-laboratory means. This worries me to the point where for my collecting I want to see serious provenance for an expensive wing badge.

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