Wear Of Airborne SSI As Combat Patches Without Airborne Tab?

[seanmc1114]

I have seen a few posts lately showing soldiers of the 82nd Airborne Division during the period (1946 -1948?) when the Airborne tab was not authorized as part of the unit's shoulder sleeve insignia. I know there was also a period when the 101st didn't wear an Airborne tab as well. I'm not sure if the 11th or 17th were active during the time. And I know the same applied to the 10th Mountain Division.

 

Anyway, my question, is whether the brief ban on the wearing of the Airborne and Mountain tabs applied to combat patches as well. In other words, would a WWII veteran of the 101st serving in the 82nd when the 82nd was not authorized to wear the Airborne tab have worn an Airborne tab on his 101st SSI if worn at the same time as a combat patch? Either way, does anyone have any photographic examples?

[uberguido]

This is a good question, one I would like clarification on too. from my experience with the 10th MTN collection, the vast majority of uniforms I picked up that had a 10th combat patch were not tabbed. I am not sure however if the lack of a tab was due to Army policy at the time, or the understanding that the tab itself spoke to more of the completion of the specialty schools associated with them (as it was on the left sleeve) and not so much as a unit identification. I did have one uniform where the tab was present on the combat side, and the SM was honor guard for the 10th, and it was removed. I only know this because the thread and impression of the tab was still visible on the inside, so I think at least as the 10th MTN is concerned it might be a combination of both policy and the "skill identifier". im interested to hear more on this for sure.

[atb]

I am fairly certain that "AIRBORNE" tabs with the SSI would be worn by soldiers if the tabs were part of that SSI when earned as former wartime SSI.

 

From the Army Institute of Heraldry (IOH) website is this on the 10th Division SSI-

 

"The shoulder sleeve insignia was originally approved for the 10th Light Division on 7 January 1944. It was redesignated for the 10th Mountain Division and a mountain tab was added on 22 November 1944. The authority to wear the mountain tab was rescinded 29 January 1947. The insignia was redesignated for the 10th Infantry Division on 14 December 1948. It was amended to change the description and symbolism on 15 November 1984. The insignia was redesignated for the 10th Mountain Division on 13 February 1985 and authority given to wear the mountain tab."

 

I think the "MOUNTAIN" tab when authorized has always been a part of the SSI and has not been a qualification tab. This may have changed in recent years, but I don't think so. It is not listed by IOH as a qualification insignia. I know it is worn with a couple of other SSI now, too.

[uberguido]

I am fairly certain that "AIRBORNE" tabs with the SSI would be worn by soldiers if the tabs were part of that SSI when earned as former wartime SSI.

 

From the Army Institute of Heraldry (IOH) website is this on the 10th Division SSI-

 

"The shoulder sleeve insignia was originally approved for the 10th Light Division on 7 January 1944. It was redesignated for the 10th Mountain Division and a mountain tab was added on 22 November 1944. The authority to wear the mountain tab was rescinded 29 January 1947. The insignia was redesignated for the 10th Infantry Division on 14 December 1948. It was amended to change the description and symbolism on 15 November 1984. The insignia was redesignated for the 10th Mountain Division on 13 February 1985 and authority given to wear the mountain tab."

 

I think the "MOUNTAIN" tab when authorized has always been a part of the SSI and has not been a qualification tab. This may have changed in recent years, but I don't think so. It is not listed by IOH as a qualification insignia. I know it is worn with a couple of other SSI now, too.

 

For sure, im agreeing with you here since I came across the same info back at Ft Drum, I think where the disconnect is, is with that was authorized and what was done, as the word I was getting from the Ft Drum museum the last couple of times I was there, that much like the crossed skis insignia, the mountain tab was something that the joes wore after they completed mountaineering school (though it was the official SSI). maybe it was to show the original guys and the replacements, it could have been cultural, could have been a unit thing, not really sure. I guess its like on of those "had to be there" to fully understand it sort of things, cause going off of the dated pictures on the walls at the museum is helpful but not the best for accuracy. I would venture to guess that 80% of the 10th uniforms I got were tabless, but I am not a uniform guy so maybe I am jacking up the dates since it was such a short window for the original tabs.

 

I do know that when I got ones that had the detailed grip variant, they were generally tabbed, and I looked into while I was at drum (the museum is pretty sweet) and the tab is used even before it was made "official", to show the guys that completed mountain school, where the crossed skis unofficial device is used to show the passing of ski school.

 

I guess in the end of the day, like too often, guys will wear

1. what looks coolest

2. whatever they can get away with

 

airborne would probably be the better analysis on this topic since I find a lot of the time the 10th guys did their own thing to separate themselves as an elite unit from the regular army. its puzzling for sure.

[tredhed2]

Your answer #2, ....guys will wear "what they can get away with" .... is something every collector should take to heart. Fully embrace that thought and save some teethgrinding. I have seen countless Ikes/4 pockets, photos, and have a few in my collection that are great cases for the individuality that many GIs openly wore. Am sure there are many other members here, or in ASMIC, who share the same sentiment and/or experiences.

 

ARs could be all powerful, or they could be ignored - and with 16,000,000 men and women in the service in WW 2, a few million in the KW, there is a great deal of evidence to support the practice of wearing what they could get away with and not nexessarily being part of the big OD machine. There will be a very interesting KW era photo along this line in the Jan-Mar 2014 Trading Post.

 

Don't forget that the enforcement of ARs, the parameter of a unit's officers, was often an unk factor to collectors 70 years down the line. That's what makes collecting unauthorized insignia so much fun. (UA because OQMG or TIOH had no hand in it).

[uberguido]

Your answer #2, ....guys will wear "what they can get away with" .... is something every collector should take to heart. Fully embrace that thought and save some teethgrinding. I have seen countless Ikes/4 pockets, photos, and have a few in my collection that are great cases for the individuality that many GIs openly wore. Am sure there are many other members here, or in ASMIC, who share the same sentiment and/or experiences.

 

ARs could be all powerful, or they could be ignored - and with 16,000,000 men and women in the service in WW 2, a few million in the KW, there is a great deal of evidence to support the practice of wearing what they could get away with and not nexessarily being part of the big OD machine. There will be a very interesting KW era photo along this line in the Jan-Mar 2014 Trading Post.

 

Don't forget that the enforcement of ARs, the parameter of a unit's officers, was often an unk factor to collectors 70 years down the line. That's what makes collecting unauthorized insignia so much fun. (UA because OQMG or TIOH had no hand in it).

 

at least you know it didn't go in one ear and out the other right!

[patches]

In reguards to the non wear of the MOUNTAIN Tab in the post war 50s period, it wasn't banned really like the 82nd's AIRBORNE tab, it's just that when this Division was reactivated it was reactivated as an Infantry Division, and a cadre strenght Training division at that, even when it was upgraded to full combat status in 1955 and GYROed to West Germany, it remained a standard Infantry Division.

[patches]

Who's got Stanton's Uniforms of the Cold War? Post photo if you would be so kind of the one on page 76, here we'll see a 10th Mountain Division patch with tab being worn as a Combat Patch by the CO of the Berlin Brigade Brigadier General John Hay while inspecting Troops of the Berlin Brigade's 592nd Signal Company.

[Wailuna]

...I'm not sure if the 11th or 17th were active during the time...

 

11th AB was in Japan until ca. 1948, then at Ft. Campbell. 17th and 101st AB were both inactivated ca. late 1945, then reactivated in July 1948 as Army training centers, 17th AB at Camp Pickett, Va., and 101st AB at Camp Breckinridge, Ky. (source: CMH Pub 60-14).

 

Notwithstanding official Army off/on policies regulating "Airborne" tabs for postwar divisions (an abomination to the Army's heraldic authorities) we are bound to see many postwar pix. of Airborne troops both with and without AB tabs, just as tredhed2 and uberguido ably explain above re. "whatever they can get away with" rules of engagement.

[uberguido]

 

 

Notwithstanding official Army off/on policies regulating "Airborne" tabs for postwar divisions (an abomination to the Army's heraldic authorities) we are bound to see many postwar pix. of Airborne troops both with and without AB tabs, just as tredhed2 and uberguido ably explain above re. "whatever they can get away with" rules of engagement.

 

Just recently (2009-2011 i think )the 4th ID allowed, unbeknownst to everyone, the addition of the Mountain tab over the 4th ID patch on the combat patch. That was "approved" by everyone in the TF Mountain Warrior. now, of course when they got home the army said no, and the 10th MTN command of course had a issue with that, but theres still shirts and hats and theater made patches and everything floating around from that little example of wearing what you can get away with, as long as no one notices and it looks cool!

[lamarhooten]

 

11th AB was in Japan until ca. 1948, then at Ft. Campbell. 17th and 101st AB were both inactivated ca. late 1945, then reactivated in July 1948 as Army training centers, 17th AB at Camp Pickett, Va., and 101st AB at Camp Breckinridge, Ky. (source: CMH Pub 60-14).

 

Notwithstanding official Army off/on policies regulating "Airborne" tabs for postwar divisions (an abomination to the Army's heraldic authorities) we are bound to see many postwar pix. of Airborne troops both with and without AB tabs, just as tredhed2 and uberguido ably explain above re. "whatever they can get away with" rules of engagement.

I have the "Basic Training with 17th Airborne Div." (at Camp Picket) book from 1949 and there is not an AIRBORNE tab to been seen on any of the cadre members. Real nice pic of MG Robert Macon with no tab above the 17th patch. It lists him as CG from Oct 48 to March 49.

[atb]

I have the "Basic Training with 17th Airborne Div." (at Camp Picket) book from 1949 and there is not an AIRBORNE tab to been seen on any of the cadre members. Real nice pic of MG Robert Macon with no tab above the 17th patch. It lists him as CG from Oct 48 to March 49.

I also have one of those books, Basic Training with 17th Airborne Division Camp Pickett, VA. Division Artillery. My father is pictured in it. None of the division SSI's pictured )on uniforms, T-shirts or helmet liners) have the "AIRBORNE" tab.

[Wailuna]

Col. Theodore A. Seely, C.O. 506th Airborne Infantry Regiment, Camp Breckinridge, Ky. ca 1949

 

[vostoktrading]

Here's some stationary from Camp Breckinridge from about that time period showing the patch without an airborne tab.

[RustyCanteen]

Here's some stationary from Camp Breckinridge from about that time period showing the patch without an airborne tab.

 

I have seen another version of that envelope -minus the paratrooper but otherwise identical- postmarked in 1951.

 

RC

[vostoktrading]

Wailuna,

Cat got his tongue? I mean in the picture... Don't see one on his patch... Tab-less & tongue-less, oh the Truman cut-backs!

[phillock]

Who's got Stanton's Uniforms of the Cold War? Post photo if you would be so kind of the one on page 76, here we'll see a 10th Mountain Division patch with tab being worn as a Combat Patch by the CO of the Berlin Brigade Brigadier General John Hay while inspecting Troops of the Berlin Brigade's 592nd Signal Company.

Gidday Patches re pic

I have an old H & J Saunders copy , poor copy may i add, on it under 101st Abn "Tab cancelled WDGPA insig(16 oct46) 29 july 1947 War Department OQMG chart.

 

Also shows 10th Infantry Division 14 Dec. 1948 has no tab.

 

The 11th and 82nd Abn Div but with an outline of a tab only. No mention of tab or cable used.

 

101st Abn No tab 21 July 1950 but has note Black and yellow Airborne tab to be used with this insignia"

 

Not to sure if this helps or adds more questions than answers-Phill

[patches]

Thank's for posting that image Phil, I wanted posted to show that irreguardless of Regs, if a Soldier wore either the 10th Mountain Division as a Combat Patch, or one of the Airborne Divisions for WWII service it would have the tab, as atb pointed out it was the duly autherized shoulder patch of the Division he, the Soldier seen action with.

 

The 101st was quite a odd bird in the days it was a Training Division as it was official titled 101st Airborne Division, but as we know no tab was worn in the Division under any circumstances,( see the Stationary, note the Paratrooper imagery, along with the Division title, but no AIRBORNE tab over the Screaming Eagles patch) no bloused Jump boots, no ParaGlider cap Badge, and as far as I can tell no unit ovels were worn by any cadre who were Jump Qualifed and found themselves assigned to the Division as Drill Sergeants, Intsructors or Commanders etc. Like all Training Divisions of the period, they did have there Colors with streamers, and unit crests, and in some cases the men to include some trainees wore unit citations, the the Belgian Rope, and PUCs, a strange and confusing period with wear of unit insignias, in example trainees wore the Division patch as well as in most cases the unit crest, they were, despite being there only for a short while, assigned to the Division.

[Wailuna]

...The 101st was quite a odd bird in the days it was a Training Division...

 

Here are some freshly hatched (and patched) 101st AB G.I.s boarding the train to their new unit assignments (from the 516th AIR 1948/49 yearbook. Link here.)

 

 

And vostoktrading's sharp eye and astute comment (above^) re. Col. Seely's "tongueless" screaming eagle raises a good point...perhaps Old Abe swallowed his tongue in surprise when he first saw that his Colonel was "jump-wingless"?

[seanmc1114]

It seems odd that they would take away every accoutrement of the Airborne (bloused boots, ovals, jump qualified cadre) from the 101st but still call the unit an Airborne Division. I guess at least it preserved the division's legacy. The 82nd, on the other hand, was still Airborne in every sense even without the tab.

[patches]

It seems odd that they would take away every accoutrement of the Airborne (bloused boots, ovals, jump qualified cadre) from the 101st but still call the unit an Airborne Division. I guess at least it preserved the division's legacy. The 82nd, on the other hand, was still Airborne in every sense even without the tab.

None of that really made any sense as far as I'm concered Sean, it seamed like a quirky idea at first when these Divisions were reactivated as such in the late 40s, they just should of kept the wartime Replacment Training Centers in place. But what really gets weird is that after the outbreak of the Korean War they reactived more Infantry Divisions as Training Divisions, not to mention several of the federelized National Guard Divisions were gutted of their people and redesignated Training Divisions.

 

Of the Divisions that were Training Division during the Korean War were

 

4th Inf Div, Ft Ord ( upgraded to full Combat Status in late 1950, moved to Germany May 1951, it was the only Training Divion to be so upgraded during the war)

 

5th Inf Div, Indiantown Gap.

 

6th Inf Div, Ft Ord ( it was reactived as a Training Division to replace the now Combat Status 4th Inf Div)

 

8th Inf Div, Ft Jackson.

 

9th Inf Div, Ft Dix.

 

10th Inf Div, Ft Riley.

 

101st Abn Div, Camp Breckinridge.

 

3rd Arm Div, Ft Knox.

 

5th Armd Div, Ft Chaffee.

 

6th Armd Div, Ft Leonard Wood.

 

7th Armd Div, Camp Roberts.

 

National Guard

 

31st Inf Div, Camp Atterbury.

 

37th Inf Div, the then Camp now Fort Polk.

 

44th Inf Div, (forgot where they were, Knox?)

 

47th Inf Div, The then Camp now Fort Rucker.

 

 

So there you have it, no less than 14 Divisions as skeletal cadre strength trainging divisions at the height of the war. Just what the Army really planned to do if a general world war broke out, which was what they, the top leaders in the DA kept sceaming about when troop requests came from Korea where a shooting war was in progess, is anybodys guess.

[Wailuna]

…the War Department…decided to use divisional designations for replacement training centers in the summer of 1947….The cadres who trained the recruits responded favorably to the use of divisions as a means of building esprit since they wore the divisional shoulder sleeve insignia, and the recruits were inspired by the accomplishments of historic units. The Army authorized more training centers divisional designations in the summer of 1948 (Table 20). As the training load fluctuated, so did the number of "divisional" training centers, which stood at four two years later. (Source CMH Pub 60-14).

 

[patches]

…the War Department…decided to use divisional designations for replacement training centers in the summer of 1947….The cadres who trained the recruits responded favorably to the use of divisions as a means of building esprit since they wore the divisional shoulder sleeve insignia, and the recruits were inspired by the accomplishments of historic units. The Army authorized more training centers divisional designations in the summer of 1948 (Table 20). As the training load fluctuated, so did the number of "divisional" training centers, which stood at four two years later. (Source CMH Pub 60-14).

 

Training Center Divisions.jpg

Thank's for the post there. I'll Agree Wailuna with the esprit thing when it was first conceived, but when hostities broke out in Korea, and massive casualties started occuring in the Army, with the very real threat of a all out war with the USSR both in the Far East and in Western Europe, and adding to it, a main land Asia war with China (outside the Korean Pennisula) then the whole Training Division notion should of been shelved.

[Wailuna]

...I'll Agree Wailuna...

 

You are not agreeing with Wailuna, Patches. This is was direct quote from official Army history. The point is that these were not combat divisions as the title of TABLE 20 clearly states. The cadres manning these division-themed training centers were the same nature of troops that would have been training the recruits no matter what the training centers were called. The Army decided to name these postwar training centers after currently inactive Army divisions, all with distinguished combat records in WWII. They could have been called anything and the net effect on the ratio of troops in the combat divisions then active to the cadre required to operate the training base then required would have been nil. How the Army operated the Korean War era training base is a good subject for another topic.

 

p.s. and, yes, I should have used quotation marks in that post ("doh!").

[patches]

 

You are not agreeing with Wailuna, Patches. This is was direct quote from official Army history. The point is that these were not combat divisions as the title of TABLE 20 clearly states. The cadres manning these division-themed training centers were the same nature of troops that would have been training the recruits no matter what the training centers were called. The Army decided to name these postwar training centers after currently inactive Army divisions, all with distinguished combat records in WWII. They could have been called anything and the net effect on the ratio of troops in the combat divisions then active to the cadre required to operate the training base then required would have been nil. How the Army operated the Korean War era training base is a good subject for another topic.

 

p.s. and, yes, I should have used quotation marks in that post ("doh!").

Right It was your posting of the archive on these. Me thinks I 'll in due course start a Topic on the Training Divisions, but me thinks you and me will be the only two posting on it