bayonetman Posted November 21, 2013 Share #1 Posted November 21, 2013 I know that many of the members are familiar with the Army Air Force during WW2 and their equipment. I have a question concerning the use of the M3 knife / M4 bayonet by the Air Corps. The United States Army Edged Weapons Report states: "Such production, since the M4 was required to be issued to issued to all troops armed with carbines, terminated the need for further production of the M3 Trench Knives, except the Trench Knife, M3 with Scabbard, Trench Knife, M8 remained standard for certain troops not armed with carbines - mostly Air Corps - the volume on hand being considered sufficient to fill those special requirements." and: "Also, it had been found that there were a large number of potential users, such as Air Corps personnel, who had received, or were requesting the M4 Bayonet-Knife, even though such issue was not included at the time in the Table of Basic Allowances." My question is, who in the Air Corps were getting / using the M3 or M4 (realizing the M4 was a substitute for the M3 and not to be used as a bayonet)? Was it Pilots, Aircrew, Ground Crew or ? I know that it was popular for flyers to carry a sheath knife (some of which were removed from various emergency kits), and I presume it was more likely to be airmen that wanted a knife since ground crews were not likely to expect to face an enemy or have an emergency situation that would require use of a knife. Any comments or direct information? Thanks for your help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThompsonSavage Posted November 21, 2013 Share #2 Posted November 21, 2013 I would say anyone who could get their hands on one. I have seen both aircrew and groundcrew with M3's on their belts, can't help you with the M4. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gregory Posted November 21, 2013 Share #3 Posted November 21, 2013 My question is, who in the Air Corps were getting / using the M3 or M4 (realizing the M4 was a substitute for the M3 and not to be used as a bayonet)? Was it Pilots, Aircrew, Ground Crew or? The glider pilots, but not only. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ccyooper Posted November 21, 2013 Share #4 Posted November 21, 2013 I suspect regular air crew (bomber) and mostly glider personnel. Many of the very nice examples that I have seen can be traced back to the AAC. Like most of their field gear, etc., it was not used and if kept was in very nice condition. I also believe the AAC was very lax on accountability compared to the other branches and services and as result many items such as pistols, etc., were kept as war souvenirs. Most of the very nice .45's that have direct provenance are attributed to pilots, aviators, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sactroop Posted November 21, 2013 Share #5 Posted November 21, 2013 Gary, My late Father-in-Law was a glider pilot in the 440th TCG squadron 95 in the ETO. He told me as they were preparing for D-Day the pilots in his squadron were scrounging for knives. Some made personal purchases, many of those were english products. He liberated a 5 inch Case pattern 322 fixed blade knife from a survival kit. He said that many of the glider pilots did this sort of thing as it made more sense to them to get what they thought they’d use from the kits before they were in the middle of an emergency. He remembers the M3’s showing up in his Troop Carrier Group shortly after the invasion. But he liked the Case so much he never felt he needed to replace it. That knife is one of the few things he held onto after the war. It seems to me that the glider pilots had access to most anything the Airborne did. It also seems to me that the glider pilots as a group preferred to travel as light as they were comfortable with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fixbayonets! Posted November 21, 2013 Share #6 Posted November 21, 2013 The items shown in this photo were issued to an 8th Army Air Force B-17 navigator, he carried the M3 & M1911A1 on all 25 of his missions. Rob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dustin Posted November 22, 2013 Share #7 Posted November 22, 2013 Gary, you ask a very good question! some time ago I found a document that talks about the M-3/M-8 knife situation for the AAF but for the life of me cannot find it but do recall it was dated October 1944.It addressed the new M-8 scabbard to be issued when supplies permit. Looking at knives you have to take on a few basic perspectives a knife is a tool in the eyes of the AAF. A tool or knife is not that necessary in the ETO versus the PTO and CBI. A knife is an indispensable tool for jungle living being expressed through every booklet and "survival" training. Since late 1942 "Survival" schools were established in Hawaii and New Guinea to name two of many. Though carrying a knife was not mandatory it was Highly recommended in which most pilots and aircrew donned one. So I wouldn't say "popular" to carry one as a fashion statement but rather a valuable tool in the possibility in the event of having to survive in the jungle. Knives can be requisitioned at any time for distribution to squadrons or groups, the question of issue is based of availability. Attached are three photographs showing the M-3 w/M3scabbard, M-3 w/M-8 scabbard and M-4 w/M-8 scabbard. all three photos are in the PTO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dustin Posted November 22, 2013 Share #8 Posted November 22, 2013 M-4 bayonet with AAF personnel in a survival training class Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dustin Posted November 22, 2013 Share #9 Posted November 22, 2013 From the same survival class Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dustin Posted November 22, 2013 Share #10 Posted November 22, 2013 An Australian instructor demonstrating some uses of the knife, the ring can be seen from this angle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dustin Posted November 22, 2013 Share #11 Posted November 22, 2013 I do remember where that literature came from , if you want PM me and I can tell you, you can inter library loan the resource. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dustin Posted November 22, 2013 Share #12 Posted November 22, 2013 Some more photos of the M8 scabbard is use by AAF personnel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dustin Posted November 22, 2013 Share #13 Posted November 22, 2013 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dustin Posted November 22, 2013 Share #14 Posted November 22, 2013 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dustin Posted November 22, 2013 Share #15 Posted November 22, 2013 I do not know enough about the scabbards to tell if this one was modified with belt hook or is the A1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dustin Posted November 22, 2013 Share #16 Posted November 22, 2013 Overall looking at this in a pictorial point of view the M-3 and with the M8 scabbard is obviously a late war introduction. In my opinion what your seeing is at the right place at the right time. Units entering the combat zone late in the war seem to have been outfitted with the M-3/M8 were as the old timers still retained the use of other types in leather sheaths in which they had been donning before the availability of the M8. All flight equipment is considered squadron equipment and there is an accountability but some things slip through the cracks. The basis of issue would be determined on a squadron level, each squadron having it's own delegated equipment rooms and requisitioning officer. What was outfitted to flight personnel could be considered personal preference. It is a different animal outside a standard TO&E for infantry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dustin Posted November 23, 2013 Share #17 Posted November 23, 2013 For the Infantry which I view glider into this category the knife is a combat tool and as I tried to present previously the knife is a "survival" tool for the AAF. The pictures go along with the quoted commentary regarding the M3 and M4 demonstrating the use in the AAF primarily for operational personnel though from time to time pictures can be found with knives being used by ground personnel but limited, I have not seen any with the M3 or M4. The use of sheath knives are more difficult to find in Europe than the PTO/CBI for AAF persons for the reason that there is no real purpose to carry one. The ETO is an Escape & Evasion theatre making a knife low on the necessary tools but you do see more evidence of the wear of hunting knives in the MTO/ North Africa, the theme being the more remote the area a knife is carried. Attached are a few excerpts from various "Survival" booklets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dustin Posted November 23, 2013 Share #18 Posted November 23, 2013 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dustin Posted November 23, 2013 Share #19 Posted November 23, 2013 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dustin Posted November 23, 2013 Share #20 Posted November 23, 2013 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dustin Posted November 23, 2013 Share #21 Posted November 23, 2013 TO&E 1-987 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dustin Posted November 23, 2013 Share #22 Posted November 23, 2013 from left to right the numbers are listed under HQ then Flights A, B, C, D ....5 categories Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bayonetman Posted November 23, 2013 Author Share #23 Posted November 23, 2013 Dustin, you are certainly the "go to" guy for information of this nature. I really appreciate all the time and trouble you went to so that I could verify something that I was curious about. Many thanks for your help, and the others who added their comments and information. Due to my age, health and financial condition, it has became obvious that I will not be able to add much to my small collection in the future. I have been rewriting some of my previous articles on bayonets and decided to include information on some of the odds and ends of knives that have found their way into the collection over the years. While updating the writing, I am also illustrating it as much as possible with those pieces that I have. This way I can add or update at will as I find new information such as has been offered here. We all see good tidbits of information on the internet, and I used to bookmark the page that it was on - bad mistake of course as these pages often disappear. I then simply copied the info onto a Word document, but have found that it is too hard to go back and find something that I might remember in the mass of pages. So now I add any points of information I find into the appropriate location in a document devoted specifically to that particular model. Not sure what use it will ever be, but at least I can find something if I have a reason to do so. The bulk of my collection is of course 20th Century bayonets. Unlike bayonets, which were almost never brought home, I do have several knives which were obtained from veterans or families of veterans over the years. I find the history of these far more interesting than I do of like new or unused pieces. My father brought two of his knives (a Mark 1 and Mark 2) back from his service in the Navy in WW2 and my uncle somehow managed to keep his M3 knife from his service in the 472nd Artillery in the Pacific. These started my interest and as both of them were members of the American Legion and VFW, I was able to talk to many veterans and in some cases add their blades to my collection when no one in their family was interested. Those days are pretty much gone now, but I try to honor their memory by keeping their stories alive along with their blades. Hopefully when I am gone the history will stay with the knives for future generations to remember. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dustin Posted November 23, 2013 Share #24 Posted November 23, 2013 Your welcome Gary! You asked a quality question in which I tried to give a quality answer to my knowledge but always still learning. I have trudged along yours, Frank's and others footsteps in regards to edged implements. I appreciate all your TIME you have contributed to the collector community. I emphasized "time" because that's what it all is....in short military nerds! I hope your curiosity was answered for the most part. The funny thing is it took many hours to accumulate the summarized small tid bits I added to only "spill it" in accumulatively 15 minutes. Myself and others I'm sure surely do truly appreciate what you have done for the bayonet world. For more AAF fun 1st Air Commandos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dustin Posted November 23, 2013 Share #25 Posted November 23, 2013 And for the ETO , the over rated theater ......probably fighting words! Sorry the PTO and CBI are much more interesting. GO NAVY!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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