Leather Lend-Lease US Jacket

[brandon_rss18]

Haha look at this piece, there are no markings indicating that this is military or even more amazing he was able to date something with no date on it, it is not named but it was in Stalingrad in 42. Why would an American soldier be in Stalingrad in 42? I must have missed something in all my reading.

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...em=320243246035

 

 

 

 

 

[Brig]

have an item number? link doesn't seem to work

[UPNATM]

have an item number? link doesn't seem to work

 

Here ya go, is this it?

 

320243246035

[Bob Hudson]

I have fixed the link.

 

I seem to recall reading somewhere about the US producing these for the Ruskies as part of our Lend Lease war aid.

[brandon_rss18]

well now that is possible but it was in Stalingrad that is amazing!!!!

[Bob Hudson]

well now that is possible but it was in Stalingrad that is amazing!!!!

 

There does not seem to be any provenance linking it to Stalingrad.

[IMPERIAL QUEST]

There does not seem to be any provenance linking it to Stalingrad.

 

 

Yea but what about the neat photo of Stalingrad burning...it must be real. Actually, the "wear" to certain areas looks artifically done. You would expect to see a few scuffs in and around the "worn" areas.

 

Real of not, I think I would look very cosmopolitan in this jacket...collar flipped up... smoking a churchill....and peering out from under a fedora in a sinister fashion...

[Gregory]

Haha look at this piece, there are no markings indicating that this is military or even more amazing he was able to date something with no date on it, it is not named but it was in Stalingrad in 42. Why would an American soldier be in Stalingrad in 42? I must have missed something in all my reading.

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...em=320243246035

Black humor or even small horror.

 

It looks like leather coat of the Russian criminals from the NKVD. It was their favourite "uniform". Every one older citizien of the Central Europe or a person interested in history of this region shudders himself seeing such a coat. In 1940 the Russian NKVD bandits wearing similar coats executed 19000 of the Polish POWs.

 

Of course leather coats before WWII were also airmen uniforms in selected European countries but after WWII the symbol of "leather coat" in Europe is very bad - either Gestapo or NKVD. EBay offerer forgot that the US armed forces preferred textile uniforms during WWII.

[Dave]

I can't get the pics on the auction to come up, but yes, we did send lend lease jackets over to the Russians. I have owned one and seen several others. I have not seen one with a manufacturing date prior to 1943, however.

 

I am attaching a pic of the tag from one of the ones I owned. As you can see, it's marked "OVERCOATS, LEATHER, W.A." with the WA standing for "War Aid".

 

These jackets were incredibly popular with senior Soviet officers and can be seen worn in numerous photos of generals and marshals on the frontlines.

 

Dave

[Dave]

And here's a pic of the entire jacket. I still can't get the pics on the auction to come up to compare it, but I assume it's the same thing. This one was in near mint condition with some minor hanger wear in the collar. Absolutely gorgeous! (And yes, it did come out of Russia...)

 

Dave

[Dave]

One other thing to mention...these ARE quite rare. This one sold for a little over $400 in excellent condition. I had another in good/fair condition that gathered in about $250...

 

Dave

[88thcollector]

I think when someone posts an attack on a seller that proves to be unwarranted, the only decent thing to do is post an apology for your lack of knowledge and for speaking publicly before doing any research.

 

This forum seems to be degenerating into a dealer and , sometimes, buyer bashing forum. Know your facts before you accuse someone of being dishonest in a public forum.

 

Steve

[brandon_rss18]

I think when someone posts an attack on a seller that proves to be unwarranted, the only decent thing to do is post an apology for your lack of knowledge and for speaking publicly before doing any research.

 

This forum seems to be degenerating into a dealer and , sometimes, buyer bashing forum. Know your facts before you accuse someone of being dishonest in a public forum.

 

Steve

 

I dont feel like getting into an argument with anyone on here, I am not going to apologize for speaking my opinion, and my opinion still stands. Another reason it is great to live in this country. However, I will apologize to you because it seems that my comment has affected you in some way. So for that I apologize. And as far as doing research on a certain item, my resources are limited and I speak only what I know. I am glad to learn things on here and that is one of the many reasons I love this forum. Personally I feel your comment was an attack at me. But again that is my opinion.

[jgawne]

As to the Stalingrad provenance.

 

Just as everything from the american civil war comes from "Gettysburg" everything from Russia comes from "Stalingrad." Now yes, they do find a lot of stuff out in the fields there still, but as to better condition :useable" items almost everything was worn out long agao by people who had nothing.

 

There is one dealer who pops up every so often, and gets kciked off ebay for showing nazi stuff, that claims his stuff is found by a group recovering soldier's remains from the area, and the money goes to help them.

 

Funny thing is I know some folks in the city that work with this group, and they have never heard of him, and certainly do not get money from selling off dug up stuff. So anyone claiming this is full of crap. Every member of these search groups I have talked to refuse to sell things as they consider it in bad taste. They may give you something, but not sell it.

 

Stalingrad is a LONG way from the areas most hunters dig (I've been there) - the baltic states, ukraine, etc. So most of what is said to be from stalingrad is either fake, or dug further to the west where it is easier to get out of Russia.

 

Of course much of the German personal items are from people digging up German graveyards or pits where bodies were dumped.

 

But Stalingrad? Unless you have a really good provenance, like the guy in Stalimgrad who found it sends it to you, or there is a photo of that exact item taken in the area.

[88thcollector]

I dont feel like getting into an argument with anyone on here, I am not going to apologize for speaking my opinion, and my opinion still stands. Another reason it is great to live in this country. However, I will apologize to you because it seems that my comment has affected you in some way. So for that I apologize. And as far as doing research on a certain item, my resources are limited and I speak only what I know. I am glad to learn things on here and that is one of the many reasons I love this forum. Personally I feel your comment was an attack at me. But again that is my opinion.

 

But you should not question someone's ethics and honesty, especially in a public forum, until you are certain of your facts.

To call a man a thief and liar and fall back on limited resources.

The only thing a dealer has, in the end, is their reputation and attacking someone's reputation should be done with great care.

The great thing about the net is being able to share information instantly all over the world but it also makes it possible to attack someone's honesty without any risks.

Last week a dealer of good repute for years was beaten up on here and no one, until I took a monment to do it, even bothered to ask him a straight forward question.

[IMPERIAL QUEST]

,,,This forum seems to be degenerating into a dealer and , sometimes, buyer bashing forum. Know your facts before you accuse someone of being dishonest in a public forum.

 

Steve

 

Hi Steve,

 

If you see statements or info. in postings that make you feel uncomfortable, contact the Admin or Mod for that section, but there is no need to take a swing at the forum by posting such a broad , sweeping statement.

 

Everyone has their opinions, and sometimes we present them in a manner that is not to the liking of others, however, most of the time here, things get worked out politely, and tactfully...and that is the way it should be.

[cwnorma]

This forum seems to be degenerating into a dealer and , sometimes, buyer bashing forum. Know your facts before you accuse someone of being dishonest in a public forum.

 

Steve,

 

We get hundreds of posts a day. The kind of behavior you are talking about is minuscule, and truly makes up a tiny minority of posts. Furthermore, when it is pointed out to the moderating staff, in most cases, we take immediate action to stop it. We walk a fine line between protecting peoples rights to free expression, and keeping the tone civil. However, the moderating staff will not stand behind a dealer who has been caught with their hand in the cookie jar. Nor will we condone "piling on" if attacks are merely personal in nature.

 

Some very wise thoughts from elsewhere on the forum:

 

One should not question a forum's ethics, writ-large, especially in public, until you are certain of your facts.

Or, call a forum a place of "dealer and sometimes buyer bashing" and fall back on limited postings to support that claim.

The only thing a forum has, in the end, is its reputation and attacking the forum's reputation should be done with great care.

The great thing about the net is being able to share information instantly all over the world but it also makes it possible to attack a forum's integrity without any risks.

Chris

[BEAR]

I don't know anything about trench coats (US or otherwise), but I do notice some very close similarities between the coat offered and these WWII soviet pilot's coats.

BEAR

[BEAR]

soviet pilots

[ADMIN]

I went ahead and moved this thread to the UNIFORMS section and added the auction pictures to the first post.

[Johan Willaert]

Discussed similar coats here:

 

http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/ind...&hl=leather

[Andrei]

These jackets were incredibly popular with senior Soviet officers and can be seen worn in numerous photos of generals and marshals on the frontlines.

 

I cant believe it ! The soviet criminals were dressed by the good ole USA !

[Dave]

I cant believe it ! The soviet criminals were dressed by the good ole USA !

 

Welcome to the lend-lease program. We sent the Soviets everything from trucks and aircraft to food and clothing. As a former Soviet uniform collector, I accumulated quite a collection of the latter over the years and it ranged from leather garments to parade uniforms (we didn't tailor the parade uniforms, but they were made with US made cloth and buttons marked with "HANDY MACHINE CO, CHICAGO" on the reverse).

 

Back to the coat that is the topic of this discussion, I am not certain that it is a US made coat, unless it has been very well oiled. The jacket I posted is the right color for these coats, while the Soviet coats tended to be much darker. At the same time, the cut is similar...perhaps someone intentionally darkened the coat by more than just a coating of preservative. The army-blanket liner looks correct though...I would be interested to see if it has the remnants of the tag in the pocket.

 

I have attached a photo of a "typical" pre-1943 Soviet flying coat (worn by an actual 42-kill ace) as a comparison.

 

As far as this coat being one from Stalingrad, that's a bit far as people have already stated. Since the "main" battle of Stalingrad took place from October through December of 1942, and most lend lease items didn't make it to the Soviet Union until after that date, I think it's simply a story to enhance the jacket.

 

For the dealer bashing, I think we should take a different tact when someone posts up something we aren't familiar with. Rather than posting up "wow, look at this dummy selling this piece of crap" we should say something to the effect of "I am not certain that this is right...can anyone confirm my suspicions?" That way, it's not a complete negative...you're simply trying to find out the actual story as none of us are experts in everything.

 

Dave

[88thcollector]

Takes about 10 seconds to send an email and you can often get the desired information.

 

Hi,

My grandfather was at war against Germans in Stalingrad. It is his coat. I will add a photo of fighting awards of my grandfather. In a photo the second award - medal 'For defense of Stalingrad'.

It is the same coat as item #300212394803. In the right pocket where the tag is located(#300212394803, photo 3), you see the rectangular seam (#320243246035, photo 5). By this seam had been attached the tag. The tag was wiped and lost.

Also the item #250226920718 is very similar.

Thanks, ok*

 

 

Of course, this doesn't mean his grandfather actually wore it at Stalingrad as it may have been issued to him later on. It does sound like it was actually used by a Soviet soldier.

[Andrei]

It looks like leather coat of the Russian criminals from the NKVD. It was their favourite "uniform". Every one older citizien of the Central Europe or a person interested in history of this region shudders himself seeing such a coat. In 1940 the Russian NKVD bandits wearing similar coats executed 19000 of the Polish POWs.

 

Of course leather coats before WWII were also airmen uniforms in selected European countries but after WWII the symbol of "leather coat" in Europe is very bad - either Gestapo or NKVD.

 

When I say Soviet criminals, I am talking about the brass and the political commissars. The NKVD butchers and their henchmen.

Note that Soviet criminals were not all "Russians"... many other nationalities and non-Orthodox among their ranks.

Dzherzhinsky, Beria, Trotsky, Stalin were not Russians.