Jump to content


A WW2(?) USMC Ka-Bar Fighting Knife

Started by Patchcollector , Oct 14 2013 06:40 PM

  • Please log in to reply
17 replies to this topic

#1 Patchcollector

Patchcollector
  • Members
    • Member ID: 13,386
  • 5,804 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Earth

Posted 14 October 2013 - 06:40 PM

Hi fellow Blade lovers,
This one is new to my collection,and I hope that it is WW2 era.I'm still new to collecting the knives,so I'll feel better if some of the experts here will comment on this piece.The seller took lots of decent pics,so here they are.

Attached Images

  • kabar1.jpg
  • kabar2.jpg


#2 Patchcollector

Patchcollector
  • Members
    • Member ID: 13,386
  • 5,804 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Earth

Posted 14 October 2013 - 06:41 PM

More pics

Attached Images

  • kabar4.jpg
  • kabar3.jpg


#3 Patchcollector

Patchcollector
  • Members
    • Member ID: 13,386
  • 5,804 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Earth

Posted 14 October 2013 - 06:41 PM

 

More pics

Attached Images

  • kabar7.jpg
  • kabar6.jpg
  • kabar5.jpg


#4 Patchcollector

Patchcollector
  • Members
    • Member ID: 13,386
  • 5,804 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Earth

Posted 14 October 2013 - 06:41 PM

More pics

Attached Images

  • kabar8.jpg
  • kabar9.jpg
  • kabar10.jpg


#5 Patchcollector

Patchcollector
  • Members
    • Member ID: 13,386
  • 5,804 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Earth

Posted 14 October 2013 - 06:42 PM

Last one

Attached Images

  • kabar11.jpg


#6 Still-A-Marine

Still-A-Marine
  • Members
    • Member ID: 4,347
  • 1,514 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Texas

Posted 14 October 2013 - 07:06 PM

Yep. WWII one of the later versions but definitely WWII.

Bill

#7 doyler

doyler
  • Members
    • Member ID: 342
  • 21,479 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 14 October 2013 - 07:09 PM

Agree with Bill

 

Mid to late war and one of the fat grip models



#8 Patchcollector

Patchcollector
  • Members
    • Member ID: 13,386
  • 5,804 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Earth

Posted 14 October 2013 - 07:14 PM

Thanks for the comments and the thumbs up fellows.I just won this in an auction within the last hour and I wanted to get it posted here so that if there were any problems I could take care of it quickly.

I feel better now that you advanced collectors signed off on it.



#9 CaseyJones

CaseyJones
  • New Members
    • Member ID: 54,242
  • 49 posts

Posted 15 October 2013 - 02:41 AM

Nice Knife! - just so I can learn something new today.  What are the characteristics that its a late WWII model?  Thanks!



#10 Still-A-Marine

Still-A-Marine
  • Members
    • Member ID: 4,347
  • 1,514 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Texas

Posted 15 October 2013 - 03:40 AM

Nice Knife! - just so I can learn something new today.  What are the characteristics that its a late WWII model?  Thanks!

It is only marked KA-BAR with a small USMC. It has a thin pommel that is pinned. The earlier versions were marked KA-BAR / OLEAN,N.Y. with a larger USMC.

This knife is actually the last version make by Ka-Bar under contract for the Marines. It is the only one made by Ka-Bar that has a pinned pommel. There is another similar version that was made prior to this knife. It ia also marked KA-BAR but has the larger USMC and a thick peened pommel.

Here is a thread that has pictures of each.

http://www.usmilitar...-co-aka-ka-bar/

Bill

Edited by Still-A-Marine, 15 October 2013 - 03:43 AM.


#11 Patchcollector

Patchcollector
  • Members
    • Member ID: 13,386
  • 5,804 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Earth

Posted 15 October 2013 - 07:29 AM

Nice Knife!

 

Thanks Casey,I agree,it is a handsome blade. :)



#12 Patchcollector

Patchcollector
  • Members
    • Member ID: 13,386
  • 5,804 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Earth

Posted 15 October 2013 - 07:30 AM

It is only marked KA-BAR with a small USMC. It has a thin pommel that is pinned. The earlier versions were marked KA-BAR / OLEAN,N.Y. with a larger USMC.

This knife is actually the last version make by Ka-Bar under contract for the Marines. It is the only one made by Ka-Bar that has a pinned pommel. There is another similar version that was made prior to this knife. It ia also marked KA-BAR but has the larger USMC and a thick peened pommel.

Here is a thread that has pictures of each.

http://www.usmilitar...-co-aka-ka-bar/

Bill

 

 

Thanks Bill for the info and that link you posted is very helpful.Now I have a clear understanding regarding the different models.My initial concern was the missing
"Olean NY",but that has been cleared up with the info from the link.

 

 

 

I copied some info from the Ka-Bar Wiki in case anyone is interested.

 

History[edit]
The owner of the KA-BAR trademark, the Union Cutlery Co. of Olean, New York, began using the name on its knives and in its advertising in 1923[5] after receiving a testimonial letter from a fur trapper, who used the knife to kill a wounded bear that attacked him after his rifle jammed.[6] According to company records, the letter was only partially legible, with "ka bar" readable as fragments of the phrase "kill a bear".[7][8][9][6][10][11] In 1923, the company adopted the name KA-BAR from the "bear story" as their trademark.[5][6] Beginning in 1923, the KA-BAR trademark was used as a ricasso stamp by Union Cutlery Co. on its line of automatic switchblade pocket knives, including the KA-BAR Grizzly, KA-BAR Baby Grizzly, and KA-BAR Model 6110 Lever Release knives.[12]
World War II[edit]
After the United States' entry into World War II, complaints arose from Army soldiers[13][14] and Marines[15] issued World War I-era bronze or alloy-handled trench knives such as the U.S. Mark I trench knife for use in hand-to-hand fighting. The Mark I was relatively expensive and time-consuming to manufacture, and reports from the field indicated that the knife's large 'brass-knuckle' fingerguard handle made it difficult to secure in conventional scabbards while limiting the range of useful fighting grip positions.[4][16] Another criticism was that the Mark I's relatively thin blade was prone to breakage when used for common utility tasks such as cutting wire, opening ammunition crates and ration tins.[4] A final impetus came from the War Department, which had determined the need for a new multipurpose knife capable of fulfilling the roles of both a fighting and a utility knife, while at the same time conserving strategic metal resources.[17]
The Marine Corps authorized limited issuance of a fighting knife with a stiletto blade design, the Marine Raider Stiletto designed by Lt. Col. Clifford H. Shuey, a Marine Corps engineering officer. Shuey's pattern was essentially a copy of the Fairbairn–Sykes fighting knife with altered material specifications designed to reduce dependence on critical strategic metals. The Raider stiletto was initially issued to elite Marine forces, including the entire 1st Marine Raider Battalion commanded by Colonel Merritt A. Edson,[18] the USMC 1st Parachute Battalion, and to Marines of the 2nd Marine Raider Battalion commanded by Lt. Col. Evans F. Carlson.[19] Primarily intended as a thrusting (stabbing) weapon, the Marines of the 1st Raider battalion found the Raider stiletto to be well designed for silent killing, but was of little use for any other purpose, and too frail for general utility tasks.[18] After their first combat, many Marines in the 2nd Raider Battalion exchanged their Raider stilettos for No. 17 and No. 18 Collins general-purpose short machetes (machetes pequeños) purchased with unit funds.[19] The Collins machetes,[20] which superficially resembled a large Bowie knife, were also issued to some Army air crews as part of the Jungle Emergency Sustenance Kit of 1939.[19]
In the absence of suitable officially issued knives, a number of Marines deploying for combat in 1942 obtained their personal knives through private purchase, usually hunting/utility patterns such as Western States Cutlery Co.'s pre-war L76 and L77 pattern knives, both of which had 7-inch (180 mm) Bowie type clip blades and leather handles.[2] The Western States L77 was stocked at the San Diego Base Exchange at the onset of the war, and knives of this pattern were carried by many Marines in the 1st Marine Division as well as by Marine Raiders in the 2nd Marine Raider Battalion commanded by Lt. Col. Evans F. Carlson.[2][18]
In response to a specification requesting for a modern individual fighting knife design for the U.S. Marines, ordnance and quartermaster officials requested submissions from several military knife and tool suppliers to develop a suitable fighting and utility knife for individual Marines, using the U.S. Navy Mark 1 utility knife and existing civilian hunting/utility knives such as Western's L77 as a basis for further improvements.[1] Working with Union Cutlery, USMC Colonel John M. Davis and Major Howard E. America contributed several important changes, including a longer, stronger blade, the introduction of a small fuller to lighten the blade, a peened pommel (later replaced by a pinned pommel), a straight (later, slightly curved) steel crossguard, and a stacked leather handle for better grip.[1][2] The blade, guard, and pommel were coated with a non-reflective matte phosphate finish instead of the brightly polished steel of the original prototype.[1] The design was given the designation of 1219C2.[1] Notably, the 1219C2 used a thicker blade stock than that of the USN Mark 1 utility knife, and featured a stout clip point.[1] After extensive trials, the 1219C2 prototype was recommended for adoption.[21] The Marines' Quartermaster at the time initially refused to order the knives, but his decision was overruled by the Commandant.[8][9][10] The Marine Corps adopted the new knife on November 23, 1942, still under the designation 1219C2.[2]
The 1219C2 proved easy to manufacture; the first production run was shipped by Camillus Cutlery Co. on January 27, 1943.[2] After the U.S. Navy became disenchanted with blade failures on the USN Mark 1 utility knife, the latter service adopted the 1219C2 as the US Navy Utility Knife, Mark 2.[22] The Marine Corps in turn re-designated the 1219C2 as either the USMC Mark 2 Combat Knife, or simply the Knife, Fighting Utility. In naval service, the knife was used as a diving and utility knife from late 1943 onward, though the stacked leather handle tended to rot and disintegrate rapidly in saltwater.
The Marine Corps issued USMC Mark 2 combat/fighting utility knife throughout Marine forces, with early deliveries going primarily to elite formations. In late 1943 the 1219C2 replaced the Marine Raider Stiletto in service, a change welcomed by the marines of Col. Edson's 1st Raider Battalion, who found the Raider stiletto ideal for silent killing but of little use for anything else.[18] As the knife went into large-scale production, the Marines issued the Mark 2 Combat/Fighting Utility knife to reconnaissance and engineering units and to any Marine armed with the pistol, M1 carbine, BAR, or crew-served machine gun (rifle-armed Marines were typically issued a bayonet). Marines were often issued knives with "U.S.N. Mark 2" markings when Navy-issued Mark 2 knives were all that was available.[2] By 1944 the USMC Mark 2 Combat/Fighting Utility knife was issued to virtually any Marine in the combat branches who desired one, and was in use by Marine Corps close combat instructors for training new recruits.[23] Unlike the prior Marine Raider stiletto, Marines were taught to use their new knife primarily as a slashing weapon in the initial phases of hand-to-hand combat.[24]
As its new name implied, the "Knife, Fighting Utility" was designed from the outset as a dual-purpose knife: it was both an effective combat knife and a utility tool, well-suited to the type of jungle warfare encountered by Marines in the Pacific theater.[23] This dual-purpose design resulted in some initial criticism of the pattern as being less than ideal for knife fighting, but combat experience of returning veterans as well as field reports from the battlefield soon dispelled any doubts about its combat effectiveness.[23][25]
After the Second World War, the U.S. Navy and Marine Corps continued to use the Mark 2 Combat/Fighting Utility knife. In addition to military contract knives, the knife was produced for the civilian market, and the pattern enjoyed some popularity as a general-purpose hunting and utility knife.[26]
Manufacturers and the "KA-BAR" name[edit]
Camillus Cutlery Co., the first manufacturer to supply the 1219C2 combat knife under contract, also produced the largest number of such knives, producing over 1 million examples marked "Camillus.N.Y." on the blade's ricasso before the war ended.[2] Besides Camillus, the Union Cutlery Co., Robeson (ShurEdge) Cutlery Co., and the PAL Cutlery Co. all produced the Mark 2 combat/fighting utility knife under military contract during World War II.[27] The Union Cutlery Company, the first company to manufacture a knife trademarked KA-BAR, was founded in 1897 as the Tidioute Cutlery Co.[5] The Tidioute Cutlery Co. was dissolved and its assets taken over by Wallace R. Brown, who renamed the company Union Razor Co. which shortly thereafter became the Union Cutlery Company in 1909, headquartered in Olean, New York.[5]
Of the four wartime manufacturers, Union Cutlery Co. was the sole wartime knife manufacturer to stamp all Mark 2 Combat/Fighting Utility knives they made for the military with their "KA-BAR" trademark on the blade's ricasso, and was second only to Camillus in terms of production, producing about 1 million knives during the wartime contract.[2] Because of this prominent trademark, Marines as early as 1944 began universally referring to their new combat knife as the "KA-BAR", regardless of manufacturer.[23][28] The popular designation of the knife as the "KA-BAR" may also have resulted from contact with Marine Corps close combat instructors in San Diego, who appear to have used the term "KA-BAR" when training recruits in the skill of knife fighting.[23]
After the end of World War II, Utica Cutlery Co., Conetta Cutlery Co., Camillus Cutlery Co., and (beginning around 1980) the Ontario Knife Co. all produced the Mark 2 under contract for the U.S. military.[2] From approximately 1945-1952, Weske Cutlery Co. of Sandusky, Ohio purchased leftover and overrun parts from wartime Mark 2 knife contractors and assembled them into knives for commercial sale, polishing out the original manufacturer and military markings, and fitting them with ungrooved leather handles.[29] Though W.R. Case made two prototype 1219C2 knives as part of a contract submission in 1942-43, no contract was ever awarded to Case for the production of military Mark 2 Combat/Fighting Utility knives, either during or after World War II. In 1992, Case would release a modern commemorative of these prototypes, the Case XX USMC Fighting Utility Knife. The Case XX USMC Fighting Utility knife is actually manufactured for Case by Ontario Knife Co[citation needed].
From 1923 until 1952, KA-BAR remained a legal trademark of Union Cutlery Company. However, in 1952 Union Cutlery renamed itself KA-BAR Cutlery Inc. in order to capitalize on widespread public recognition of the "KA-BAR" name and trademark, which had by then become synonymous with the well-regarded but confusingly titled USMC Mark 2 Combat Knife or Knife, Fighting Utility of the late war.[2] While the company name changed, KA-BAR, Inc.'s headquarters are still located in Olean, New York. Cutco Corporation, manufacturer of Cutco Cutlery, acquired the company in 1996.[30]
Knifemaker Duane Dwyer of Strider Knives has made custom versions of the USMC Fighting Utility knife featuring pattern welded blades.[31]
Service[edit]
2005.
KA-BAR makes Army and Navy versions as well as USMC versions.[1] They are the same as the Marine version except for different initials at the bottom of the blade and different symbols on the sheath. Marines today often give the blades, guards and pommels of their knives a few coats of non-reflective matte black spray paint to reduce reflected light and give them a little more protection against saltwater corrosion.[1] Its moderate carbon and low chromium steel mixture allows the blade to hold an edge very well. The 1095 chrome-vanadium steel[citation needed] used in the blades of contemporary KA-BARs has a hardness of 56–58 HRC, while the guard and pommel are made from sintered 1095 carbon steel. Besides use as a fighting knife, the Mark 2 has proven its usefulness as a utility knife, used for opening cans, digging trenches, and cutting wood, roots, wire, and cable.[1] In 1995, the design was updated with a tool steel blade, synthetic handle, and synthetic sheath marketed as "The Next Generation".[4] As of June 2012 the "Next Generation" models have been discontinued.



#13 Frank Trzaska

Frank Trzaska
  • Members
    • Member ID: 4,426
  • 285 posts

Posted 17 October 2013 - 03:15 PM

FYI,

 

There are so many mistakes in the above wiki it does a disservice to anyone following it and using it as a guide. It is just restated old wives tales in many cases right along side the actual real facts. How can you tell what is what is the problem.

 

All the best

Frank Trzaska



#14 gunbarrel

gunbarrel
  • Members
    • Member ID: 70
  • 6,119 posts

Posted 17 October 2013 - 06:06 PM

 

I copied some info from the Ka-Bar Wiki in case anyone is interested.

 

---------------------------------

Patchcollector,

 

Is it O.K. with you if Bayonetman removes the Ka-bar epistle according to Wiki? It's mind-boggling when listed like that, and like Frank says...it stinks.

 

Thanks for your consideration.



#15 sactroop

sactroop
  • Members
    • Member ID: 17,422
  • 1,019 posts

Posted 18 October 2013 - 10:44 AM

Unfortunately things like Wiki and The History Channel seem to often do more to perpetuate myths and mis-information that they do to educate their viewers with confirmed facts.



#16 Patchcollector

Patchcollector
  • Members
    • Member ID: 13,386
  • 5,804 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Earth

Posted 18 October 2013 - 07:07 PM

I think that most,if not all of the forum readers are acquainted with Wikipedia,and like all websites,it contains errors.However,instead of complaining about it,if I were an expert and saw errors,I would see this as an opportunity to set the record straight and make some corrections,which is quite easy on Wikipedia.Just go to the page,hit the "Edit" button where needed,and follow the instructions.



#17 Still-A-Marine

Still-A-Marine
  • Members
    • Member ID: 4,347
  • 1,514 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Texas

Posted 18 October 2013 - 08:12 PM

There are many sources with bad/incorrect information. That is one of the reasons forums like this are so valuable. Just because Wikipedia can be updated by anybody does not mean someone should feel the need to do so. Even it it would set the record straight. The very next person could change it right back to the bad information.

Bill

#18 Patchcollector

Patchcollector
  • Members
    • Member ID: 13,386
  • 5,804 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Earth

Posted 18 October 2013 - 08:50 PM

There are many sources with bad/incorrect information. That is one of the reasons forums like this are so valuable. Just because Wikipedia can be updated by anybody does not mean someone should feel the need to do so. Even it it would set the record straight. The very next person could change it right back to the bad information.

Bill

 

Hi Bill,

Yes,Wikipedia is a great concept,being user generated,but it does have it's problems too.It's true,someone could go back in and change the info again,that's a good point.

Would I let that stop me from adding corrections if I was aware of errors,no,but that's just me.

I agree,if anyone is hesitant to add corrections to Wikipedia for the reason you stated,corrections to any website can be posted here on the forum.




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users


In Memory of Co-Founder GREG MILLS ROBINSON, a.k.a. "Marine-KaBar"
(February 17, 1949 - March 5, 2011)