My P-40 Picture

[Championhilz]

I wanted to share my P-40 picture that just came in the mail today - It is labeled on the back, "P-51 belonging to Flying Tigers. Taken At Yunan." The person who wrote the ID on the back was obviously mistaken, as the plane is a P-40. Could anyone tell me what model of P-40 it is? Also, is it possible that the plane actually did belong to the Flying Tigers? All comments will be very much appreciated.

 

 

[brandon_rss18]

I dont believe this particular plane was in the AVG as the star and bars are present on the underside of the wing in your photo, the Flying Tigers had the Republic of China insignia on their wings, but maybe this photo was taken after America entered the war and the AVG was disbanded and the plane had the US insignia put on but I dont know of anyway of really telling, any ideas fella?

[CorsairAce]

Sorry, it is not the Orinigal Flying Tigers. It is a P-40 of the 14th AF. After the US entered the war, the AVG pilots returned to join US forces. The 14th took over in China and was commanded by Claire Chennault (AVG Commander as well). Note the stars and bars under the starboard wing. This was probably taken around late 43 early 44.

[Chris_B]

I agree with the comments about: 14th AF. A sure sign that it's non-AVG besides the insignia- the white spinner

 

Looks like a P-40K to me but it's hard to tell in the pic

[Johnny Signor]

after the AVG was dibanded/became under AAF control it was with the 23rd Fighter group, this P-40 is probably from that time period and hence the star and bar under wing.

[Teamski]

I don't think the Flying Tigers had P-40E's anyways. I think they just had P-40B/C's.... The P-40K was the Merlin powered version.

 

-Ski

[J_Andrews]

The AVG did indeed have P-40E's -- but only about 12, received in early 1942, after the US entered the war.

 

NOTE: The 1st AVG was just that -- the FIRST. There were to be THREE, making a WING.

 

The 2nd AVG assembled personnel and aircraft, Stateside, in Nov 1941. It had one squadron (25 planes) of P-40E, and two of A-29 Lockheed Hudson light bombers. Most, perhaps all, of the fighters were shipped, disassembled, by ship and got as far as British West Africa, where they were assembled, in Dec 1941. With the outbreak of open hostilities, they sat there for a few months. Then several AVG pilots were sent to collect them and ferry them back to India; IIRC six aircraft were fetched this way, and another similar quantity was ferried by non-AVG men. The remainder were not forwarded for Chinese use, but rather got sucked up into service in North Africa by the RAF. The first squadron of Hudsons was being ferried, also through west Africa, when Pearl Harbor changed the game. Apaprently all or nearly all the crews got recalled to active duty with the USAAF, and the aircraft were dispersed into RAF inventories, some staying in West Africa, some heading north.

 

The 3rd AVG had just begun forming in Dec 41 and was cancelled. It was to have had two squadrons of P-40Es and one of B-25s. An additional lot of P-40Es were also to be sent to Chennault, to replace the P-40B/Cs.

 

The NICKNAME "Flying Tigers" BEGAN with the 1st AVG, but later was taken up by the successor 23rd Fighter Group (USAAF), then assumed/usurped by the entire 14th Air Force. The AVG was NOT a unit of the USAAF, it was a Chinese organization -- thus there can be no direct link/lineage to the 23rd or 14th AF.

[Chris_B]

J knows his AVG history! The AVG is a fascinating subject for me

 

The AVG technically didn't have P-40 B or C models- they were only P-40s in US service, and its interesting to note that the "P" stood for "Pursuit". It was part of how the US Army duped Congress into allocating funds for fighters- by calling them Pursuit planes and portraying them as defensive bomber interceptors rather than offensive weapons, they got funding for new designs.

 

The Curtiss name for export models like the planes the AVG had at first was Hawk 81, and depending on what book or ref you read, you'll learn that, depending on the source, the planes were H81A-2s, or H81-A3s- but maybe the "H81-A3" was only used by a frustrated Curtiss employee to differentiate his paperwork from other export orders, or was just an error. Curtiss used many obsolete parts on the planes, too, to use up old stock. They weren't even painted with the specified RAF colors, the paint that Curtiss had on hand was used instead. The plane the AVG got was about the same as the British Tomahawk, which was an H81 with RAF spec gear. The US equivalent was roughly the P-40B, as the planes the AVG got had no external bomb shackles, and no bomb release in the cockpit. Even the engines the AVG got as replacements were hand-fit from the 'reject' pile, so as not to disrupt regular Alison production. They had civilian or even no radios, and no reflector gunsights when they were first assembled in Burma

 

Further confusing the AVG roster are pilots like "Ajax" Baumler and Robert Scott, as well as others, who were with the AAF but flew with the AVG and/or for Chennault at times in the CBI. The key to AVG personnel is that they were civilians- they resigned from the US armed forces to join the AVG. Chennault held Chinese rank even as he wangled rank in the USAAF

 

Even good books like "days of the Ching Pao" have erroneous info about who what when and where, and even the official Chinese histories aren't quite right, it seems

 

I touched on this earlier, but the spinner on that P-40 is a dead give-away. Legend has it that each squadron of the AVG had different colored spinners. Surviving members do not recall this at all, and color photos of the intial planes of the AVG do not show this. Color photos of the P-40Es of the AVG are non-existent except for a single example that is ambiguous, unless more photos have recently surfaced.

 

The colored spinner legend seems to have its root in isolated cases, like Scott painting his spinner a different color on a few occasions. Even the colored fuselage bands were not all painted on each AVG plane- it was supposed to be white for 1st SQDN (Not the 1st AVG, but the First Pursuit Squadron of the 1st AVG), Blue for 2nd PS, red for 3rd PS. In practice, it didn't work that way; some never got painted at all

[J_Andrews]

I checked a ref and the 1st AVG got 6 P-40Es, picked up by AVG pilots in Accra, then flow 7,000 miles back to India, over 20 days for pilots (both ways). This was in March 1942.

 

The AVG eventually got at least 30 and as many as 35 P-40Es before disbanding on 4 July 1942. At disbandment, they turned over 19 to the follow-on USAAF Task Force. Fuselage numbers for the E's should have started at 99, but this has not been confirmed. The lowest confirmed number was 102 and the highest number seen was 134.

 

I also found that the P-40Es intended for the 2nd AVG (and re-equipment for the 1st) got to Australia, where they were diverted into USAAF squadrons formed (or re-formed) from pilots and ground staff evacuated from the Philippines (after their planes were gone). The first such unit (with 18 aircraft) was the 17th, in Jan 1942, which went north to defend Darwin (under attack by Japanese air). The 17th and the next-organized 20th (probably with 18 planes) went on to the Dutch E Indies in Feb -- where the were eventually lost in combat. Additionally 59 aircraft were sent aboard the old carrier Langley and a merchant ship, but both were sunk and all aircraft lost.

I could not find anything specific on the fate of the A-29 Hudsons.

[Gordon B]

I checked a ref and the 1st AVG got 6 P-40Es, picked up by AVG pilots in Accra, then flow 7,000 miles back to India, over 20 days for pilots (both ways). This was in March 1942.

 

The AVG eventually got at least 30 and as many as 35 P-40Es before disbanding on 4 July 1942. At disbandment, they turned over 19 to the follow-on USAAF Task Force. Fuselage numbers for the E's should have started at 99, but this has not been confirmed. The lowest confirmed number was 102 and the highest number seen was 134.

 

I also found that the P-40Es intended for the 2nd AVG (and re-equipment for the 1st) got to Australia, where they were diverted into USAAF squadrons formed (or re-formed) from pilots and ground staff evacuated from the Philippines (after their planes were gone). The first such unit (with 18 aircraft) was the 17th, in Jan 1942, which went north to defend Darwin (under attack by Japanese air). The 17th and the next-organized 20th (probably with 18 planes) went on to the Dutch E Indies in Feb -- where the were eventually lost in combat. Additionally 59 aircraft were sent aboard the old carrier Langley and a merchant ship, but both were sunk and all aircraft lost.

I could not find anything specific on the fate of the A-29 Hudsons.

 

Indeed the AVG did get P-40Es ex Accra and flown by both USAAF and RAF Ferry Pilots all the way to CBI in small groups. With IRCards, the actual serials are known as per the date of dispatch with circa 32 P-40Es. Its all in the Theater allocation codes and serials.

The serial of the P-40E possessed by Col. Robert Scott was 41-5696,...one of the first batch in early April 42. Over the years, it was quoted as 41-1156, then 41-1196 etc, but we all know that was right per the FY allocations.

 

Per the later comment of the 2AVG, if I may advise, that my good Mate William H Bartsch (Author Doomed from the start/ December 8th, Macarthur's Pearl Harbour Etc)will be releasing his new book "Every day a nightmare" in 2010 which covers the creation and exploits of the five Provisional P-40E Squadrons (17th/20th/3rd/33rd and 13th). It will fill in the many gaps that have had remained a mystery over the past 67 years.

 

If you would like more comtempory details per the actual squadron aircraft numbers and pilots of the squadrons, I can. IE: 17th PS(Prov), left Amberley Qld, with 17 aircraft, Townsville with 15 aircraft, then left Darwin for Koepang Timor with 14 aircraft.

 

Been a pet and joint project with Bill.

 

 

Anyway, this is just a heads up and my first posting

 

Cheers

Gordy

[Wailuna]

...William H Bartsch (Author Doomed from the start/ December 8th, Macarthur's Pearl Harbour Etc)...

Hijack alert: December 8, 1941: MacArthur's Pearl Harbor is the best book ever written about the run-up to war in the Philippines, period, and it arguably is among the best of all books about WWII. End of hijack.

[Gregory]

The AVG did indeed have P-40E's

From Carl Molesworth's book "P-40 Warhawk Aces of the CBI".

[Cobrahistorian]

I don't think the Flying Tigers had P-40E's anyways. I think they just had P-40B/C's.... The P-40K was the Merlin powered version.

 

-Ski

 

 

First off, that's a GREAT photo! I can't see the canopy, but that is either a P-40M or P-40N. It has an Allison Engine and extended tail, so it would either be an M or N model. The star and bar on it would fall in line with that too. The M had the full greenhoused sliding canopy, while the N gave a little better visibility with a clear sliding canopy.

 

The K was an Allison Engined model which replaced the E in production (and as noted, the Flying Tigers did have D and E model P-40s late in their existence). Early K's are identifiable by the extended ventral strake leading up to the vertical fin and the short tail feathers. With late model K's the fuselage was extended, placing the horizontal stabilizers farther ahead of the vertical tail. This was standard on all subsequent P-40s. So, it could be a late-model K, although my bet would be on an N model, since they were the most numerous variant.

 

The F and L model were the Merlin-powered variants and from what I've seen, they did not see a lot of action in the PTO. In fact, I've never seen a shot of a Merlin-powered P-40 anywhere other than North Africa or Stateside. I have a couple original photos of L models flying from Luke Field in Arizona in mid-1944. Along with those, I've got a uniform grouping identified to one of the P-40F pilots to fly off of the USS Ranger in July 1942. He was with the 57th FG, scored one kill (Me109F) and was shot down and captured in November 1942.

 

Looking at this pic, I'd say it is probably from the Chinese-American Composite Wing (Provisional)'s 3rd or 5th Fighter Group, but that's just a guess.

 

For comparison, here are P-40Es, Ms and Ns from Cutting Edge Decals. All served in the CBI. The 3rd and 4th birds there are N models with the clear sliding canopy. The 1st one is an M model with the extended tail.

 

 

Jon

[USMC_GAU-21]

Jon,

 

Hard to tell if this indeed is a "M" model P-40, can't see the strake. But remember the P-40M had the cooling inlet on each side ahead of the exhaust stacks, and a radio antennae mast. Like you said it was powered by the Allison V-1710-81. But of the 600 some M's produced they all went to lend lease according to the Curtis website:

 

In 1943, the scarcity of Packard Merlin engines necessitated that the Allison engine be reintroduced yet again into the P-40 production line. The result was the P-40M version.

 

The P-40M was essentially similar to the P-40K-20-CU, apart from the use of the Allison V-1710-18 engine, rated at 1200 hp for takeoff and 1125 hp at 17,300 feet. The P-40M could be distinguished from the P-40K by the introduction of a cooling grill forward of the exhaust stubs.

 

The P-40M was built solely for Lend-Lease, the contract being approved on August 24, 1942. The first P-40M appeared in November, 1942. Most of them went to the RAF, the RAAF, and the RNZAF as the Kittyhawk III. The type served with British Commonwealth forces in the Far East. A number were operated in Italy by No. 5 Squadron of the South African Air Force.

 

The differences between the production blocks were as follows:

 

The P-40M-1-CU had reinforced ailerons.

 

The P-40M-5-CU had improved carburetor air filters and further aileron improvements.

 

The P-40M-10-CU had revised undercarriage warning systems and fuel system changes

 

Serials of the P-40M were as follows:

 

43-5403/5462 Curtiss P-40M-1-CU Warhawk

43-5463/5722 Curtiss P-40M-5-CU Warhawk

43-5723/6002 Curtiss P-40M-10-CU Warhawk

 

The RAF serials for the 264 P-40Ms supplied to the RAF as Kittyhawk IIIs were FR779/FR872 and FS100/FS269.

 

168 P-40Ms were supplied to Australia as Kittyhawk IIIs under the serial numbers A29-300/389, A29-400/414, A29-420/434, A29-442/460, and A29-473/502.

 

34 P-40Ms went to New Zealand as serial numbers NZ3066/3073, NZ3075/3089, NZ3109/3119, and NZ3180

 

The P-40M equipped the No. 5 Squadron of the South African Air Force serving in Italy.

 

19 P-40Ms were transferred to Brazil.

 

Sources:

 

1. War Planes of the Second World War, Fighters, Volume Four, William Green, Doubleday, 1964.

 

2. The American Fighter, Enzo Angelucci and Peter Bowers, Orion Books, 1987.

 

3. United States Military Aircraft since 1909, Gordon Swanborough and Peter M. Bowers, Smithsonian Institution Press, 1989.

 

4. Curtiss Aircraft, 1907-1947, Peter M. Bowers, Naval Institute Press, 1979.

 

5. The Curtiss P-40 Tomahawk, Ray Wagner, Aircraft in Profile, Volume 2, Doubleday, 1965.

 

So I don't think it is a M, I agree a late model "K"....I don't see the ADF loop ant. either just aft of the canopy so hard to say. "K" or "N", but not an "M".

 

Great old picture though. Hard to tell since we can't see if the fuselage has been modified or not due to the "short-coupled" characteristics the P-40 had.

 

- R/Dan

[Cobrahistorian]

Dan,

 

Like I said above, I'd say it is an N. Looking at the aft portion of the canopy, it looks like it ends vertically, not the rounded windows of the K/M.

 

The N would also be most likely with that star & bar.

 

Jon

[Cobrahistorian]

Ok, I've done a little enhancing on this one. I'm seeing a P-40N here. No framing on the sliding canopy and a vertical trailing edge on the aft edge of the canopy framing.

 

[USMC_GAU-21]

Jon,

 

Agreed...."N" model. Nice Work :thumbsup:

 

Dano

[Cobrahistorian]

Jon,

 

Agreed...."N" model. Nice Work :thumbsup:

 

Dano

 

 

I live for this kinda stuff! Gimme WWII airplanes any day!

 

:thumbsup:

[Gregory]

Hi P-40 lovers,

 

Does anybody know by what model(s) of P-40 flew Witold Urbanowicz when he served under Chennault's command?

 

Best regards

 

Greg

[USMC_GAU-21]

Yeah this is the ID work I like best. Working from a picture is easy. Try working from a crash site with the biggest piece being a size of a football. Yikes.

 

Ok not to hijack the thread but try this one Jon.

 

what is it:

[Cobrahistorian]

Yeah this is the ID work I like best. Working from a picture is easy. Try working from a crash site with the biggest piece being a size of a football. Yikes.

 

Ok not to hijack the thread but try this one Jon.

 

what is it:

 

 

Those little oval windows are a dead giveaway. That's an A-20. Now the question is, where is it and how can I get my hands on it!

 

 

Gregory, Urbanowicz flew with the 75th FS from September to December of 1943. Should be right in the P-40K timeframe.

[Gregory]

Gregory, Urbanowicz flew with the 75th FS from September to December of 1943. Should be right in the P-40K timeframe.

Hello Jon,

 

Thank you very much. The Poles love the subject of Flying Tigers thanks to Urbanowicz's presence with them but there is neverending discussion in my country what P-40 models Urbanowicz piloted in CBI with the Tigers? Both confirmed air victories over Ki-43s he achieved at the P-40N controls but it is known that he piloted various P-40s belonged more or less personally to the American pilots. He did not have his "own" P-40 as many of his American colleagues had then. He shot down five Japs but officially only two he had confirmed. He mentioned that, among others, he flew by P-40 with side number 188.

 

Best regards

 

Greg

[USMC_GAU-21]

I'll never tell...... Yup the windows and the tail surfaces for sure give it away, look at the horizontal tail surfaces and that rounded vertical fin....dead give away A-20 all day. Very early one too with a roundel. Went down early '42.

 

Yes P-40K for the last post agreed. for the 75th FS.

 

r- DRH

[Gordon B]

Jon,

 

Hard to tell if this indeed is a "M" model P-40, can't see the strake. But remember the P-40M had the cooling inlet on each side ahead of the exhaust stacks, and a radio antennae mast. Like you said it was powered by the Allison V-1710-81. But of the 600 some M's produced they all went to lend lease according to the Curtis website:

So I don't think it is a M, I agree a late model "K"....I don't see the ADF loop ant. either just aft of the canopy so hard to say. "K" or "N", but not an "M".

 

Great old picture though. Hard to tell since we can't see if the fuselage has been modified or not due to the "short-coupled" characteristics the P-40 had.

 

- R/Dan

 

Perhaps, but two things to bear in mind. Changing V1710-39 engines in P-40Es in late 42/early 43resulted in some being replaced by V1710-73s. Later H-87A3s(or A4 to some),..post circa 41-364**'s (RAF #s EV3**s)had evolved in appearance similar to P-40K-1s, fish tails and tail Fillets included.

 

Still in this pic, there's no visible Grid per Carburetor bypass, there by making it a early M (were there M-1s in CBI?,..Not)or a late K at worst. The distance between tail wheel and rudder could stand some scrutiny as it looks long like a P-40N-1. There is seemingly framing with my eyesight, so I'd go as far to say late 1943 with a P-40N-1 with the extra 2 crated 0.50s added

 

Cheers

Gordy

[Cobrahistorian]

Perhaps, but two things to bear in mind. Changing V1710-39 engines in P-40Es in late 42/early 43resulted in some being replaced by V1710-73s. Later H-87A3s(or A4 to some),..post circa 41-364**'s (RAF #s EV3**s)had evolved in appearance similar to P-40K-1s, fish tails and tail Fillets included.

 

Still in this pic, there's no visible Grid per Carburetor bypass, there by making it a early M (were there M-1s in CBI?,..Not)or a late K at worst. The distance between tail wheel and rudder could stand some scrutiny as it looks long like a P-40N-1. There is seemingly framing with my eyesight, so I'd go as far to say late 1943 with a P-40N-1 with the extra 2 crated 0.50s added

 

Cheers

Gordy

 

 

Its frustrating, because the enhancements I've done on this photo to bring out the canopy aren't really visible in the resized one I posted. It is definitely at least a P-40N-5 with the unframed canopy and cut down greenhouse on the aft end. Were it an N-1, you'd be able to see a piece of framing when looking at the sliding canopy interior from this angle.

 

Jon