bobgee Posted April 15, 2008 Share #26 Posted April 15, 2008 Dirk.........Another fabulous, historical USMC post! Great pictures and great story telling! Thank you....... Semper Fi....Bobgee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirk Posted April 15, 2008 Author Share #27 Posted April 15, 2008 Bob: thanks...to bad I couldn't get a post as large as the one I sent you of the entire MD....although Bob's image skills made that one field picture actually viewable....now to continue researching what is in the album...there are a few events I am still studying for there significance to the period. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeremiahcable Posted April 15, 2008 Share #28 Posted April 15, 2008 Excellent thread and great detective work Dirk. It's worth noting something in the image of the 4 Marines in fur hats with beer bottles, the fellow on the right is a dual hashmark private! Very rare to see an image of that! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason G Posted April 15, 2008 Share #29 Posted April 15, 2008 Dirk, absolutely fantastic. Thank you very much for posting these, and going thru the time and trouble it took to do so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOLO Posted April 15, 2008 Share #30 Posted April 15, 2008 Pvt Weeks very much looks Chinese. somebody must have mislabled the photo? this man is not Pvt. Weeks, probably a Chinese soldier Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Hudson Posted April 15, 2008 Share #31 Posted April 15, 2008 somebody must have mislabled the photo? this man is not Pvt. Weeks, probably a Chinese soldier Yes, I did an ancestry.com search for Henry T Weeks and it seemed like he had basically Scottish ancestry which that rider certainly does not. Weeks was indeed part of the mounted unit and I wonder if this was an interpreter who rode with them? It could be Weeks took the photo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobgee Posted April 15, 2008 Share #32 Posted April 15, 2008 The rider certainly has a strange face for a U.S. Marine!!!! He does look Chinese. Interesting story here, Dirk! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Hudson Posted April 15, 2008 Share #33 Posted April 15, 2008 Bob: Thanks for the comment and the image darkening....you have to teach me that skill! Just for you - This morning I did a quick and dirty tutorial video on dealing with faded photos and it's on You Tube: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirk Posted April 15, 2008 Author Share #34 Posted April 15, 2008 First of all let me thank you all for your kind words regarding this thread....I enjoy these because it forces me to really study the images and want to know more about the men in it....I really think China Marines are still an unreached area....particularly selected periods such as this....as for the rider in question...he well could be the rider as labled...he could also be a chinese interpeter (and if so that would be an area of study that I for one had not heard of but could be a new research area to follow) or he could be a house boy they dressed up for the event....without a NARA supplied image I'll never know.....the the uniform as tack are what they are without a doubt and weeks was in the mounted at that time. J: Hope we will soon see a thread from you..... Bob: A big thanks for that excellent image tutorial...i've got to get that program and I've bookmarked it to my favorites...it really is very well done Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
disneydave Posted April 16, 2008 Share #35 Posted April 16, 2008 I don't collect USMC items but I sure enjoyed the history behind the photos and the detective work. Great job! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiaiokalewa Posted April 16, 2008 Share #36 Posted April 16, 2008 Likewise, I'm not a collector of Marine items but I do love this time period. This and your earlier photo contribution are very interesting. I'm curious to know if the Marines ever established a Chinese Language School like the US Army 15th Infantry Regiment did in Tientsin during 1924? If they did, would the Marine graduates from the program wear speciality rating like the 15th IR Soldiers did on their right cuff? The insignia is distinctively known as the "Chung" patch? If so, it would be great to see photographic images of the Marines wearing them and learning more about the program that was set up for them while they were in China. Again, super interesting thread! Aloha John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOLO Posted April 16, 2008 Share #37 Posted April 16, 2008 First of all let me thank you all for your kind words regarding this thread....I enjoy these because it forces me to really study the images and want to know more about the men in it....I really think China Marines are still an unreached area....particularly selected periods such as this....as for the rider in question...he well could be the rider as labled...he could also be a chinese interpeter (and if so that would be an area of study that I for one had not heard of but could be a new research area to follow) or he could be a house boy they dressed up for the event....without a NARA supplied image I'll never know.....the the uniform as tack are what they are without a doubt and weeks was in the mounted at that time. by the look of his face he seems diciplined? he shows military bearing, I dont think he is a house boy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirk Posted April 16, 2008 Author Share #38 Posted April 16, 2008 Again guys, thanks for the kind words....with these albums there are so many little details that have a story behind them and published sources of information so few, it becomes a fun challenge just to figure it all out.....on the language school question, I've not seen anything yet that says they ever established such a school....I do know that in 1910 the Marines began sending officers to Peking to study Chinese for initially two, then three years. Future Marine Commandant Thomas Holcomb was one of two who first went....Holcomb already had two tours in China 1905-06 and I think 08 or 09 when the school opportunity came up...I've got the personnel letters of the second language student and did a lot of research at the National Archives into these two men and the curriculum they studied etc....for this early period they lived on the economy and where assigned a Chinese national as an instructor...progress was monitored by on-site State Dept Reps and the US Naval Attache in Japan.....after Holcomb completed his studies (I think in 1914) the Secretary of the Navy stopped the program for cost saving purposes. They revived the program in the 1920's....sending several officers at a time. As for everyone else, in published bios, letters I've gathered and post newspaper articles non-formal opportunities arose to learn the language....the post paper from time to time would run articles on how to speak Chinese...or note Chinese languages lessons were offered by the Legation Guard YMCA or other sources...still others said they learned from what some of them termed "Sleeping Phrase Books"...i.e. women they dated or their house boys or Chinese families/Merchants they may have become friendly with. I've seen the "Chung" patch in Moran's book...but I have yet to see images of it being worn.....I'll keep looking and researching, as that is one question I too would like to know. BTW last year I was able to pick up a copy of "Kuan Hua Chih Nan" a Chinese language book published in 1909 and inscribed to future Marine General Worton who was a Chinese language student in the 30's...in the inscription he notes this was the copy used by the language officers in Peking....kind of a neat little item considering a Language Officers letters is what started me on this quest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teufelhunde.ret Posted April 16, 2008 Share #39 Posted April 16, 2008 This image from a series, shows Marines, civilians and Chinese nationals watching a baseball game on the glacis. Neville's album shows a great number of images highlighting "opening day" ceremonies, complete with the marine band leading the players. Note several band members in attendance in this crowd. Dirk, finally found the time to sit down and read your posts, as always you tell a wonderful story to accompany this special period of Marine Corps history. And in time I'm sure you will be able to publish a wonderful book. As you might expect... I looked closely at the photo's and fine fascinating the various uniform configurations. Took the liberty of using one photo showing the three musicians. They have their collar insignia in place, as shown. Question, does anyone own one and would care to share a photograph with us? Great work Dirk and thank you for sharing with us all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cavsaddle Posted April 16, 2008 Share #40 Posted April 16, 2008 At Dirks request I'm adding some comments about the horse equipment pictured on this topic. The saddles and other equipment is definitly US issue . The saddles are the M1904 McClellan. The bridles are either M1902 or 1909,hard to see in photos. The bits are the M1902. The rifle scabbard shown is the M1905 or 1917 made for use with the '03 Springfield. I have seen horse equipment (hooded stirrups and saddlebags) that bore the USMC in an oval instead of the traditional US. These are rare. There have also been canvas saddleblanket covers with a nicely stamped EGA sewn to the bottom corner. These too are very hard to come by. Hope this adds to the topic. Best, George. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirk Posted April 16, 2008 Author Share #41 Posted April 16, 2008 George: Thank you for coming into this one and providing such unique information on the tack and the other equipment on the horse. I know I for one have not seen anything on what type of tack the Horse Marines used or if it changed over time. Again, thank you for getting the ball rolling with your expertise. Dirk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cavsaddle Posted April 16, 2008 Share #42 Posted April 16, 2008 Dirk, No thanks necessary. Glad I could add something to this really interesting thread. I've never seen these particular mounted marine photos. So thank you for bringing them to my attention. Please feel free to pick my brain anytime. Best, George. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiaiokalewa Posted April 17, 2008 Share #43 Posted April 17, 2008 Again guys, thanks for the kind words....with these albums there are so many little details that have a story behind them and published sources of information so few, it becomes a fun challenge just to figure it all out.....on the language school question, I've not seen anything yet that says they ever established such a school....I do know that in 1910 the Marines began sending officers to Peking to study Chinese for initially two, then three years. Future Marine Commandant Thomas Holcomb was one of two who first went....Holcomb already had two tours in China 1905-06 and I think 08 or 09 when the school opportunity came up...I've got the personnel letters of the second language student and did a lot of research at the National Archives into these two men and the curriculum they studied etc....for this early period they lived on the economy and where assigned a Chinese national as an instructor...progress was monitored by on-site State Dept Reps and the US Naval Attache in Japan.....after Holcomb completed his studies (I think in 1914) the Secretary of the Navy stopped the program for cost saving purposes. They revived the program in the 1920's....sending several officers at a time. As for everyone else, in published bios, letters I've gathered and post newspaper articles non-formal opportunities arose to learn the language....the post paper from time to time would run articles on how to speak Chinese...or note Chinese languages lessons were offered by the Legation Guard YMCA or other sources...still others said they learned from what some of them termed "Sleeping Phrase Books"...i.e. women they dated or their house boys or Chinese families/Merchants they may have become friendly with. I've seen the "Chung" patch in Moran's book...but I have yet to see images of it being worn.....I'll keep looking and researching, as that is one question I too would like to know. BTW last year I was able to pick up a copy of "Kuan Hua Chih Nan" a Chinese language book published in 1909 and inscribed to future Marine General Worton who was a Chinese language student in the 30's...in the inscription he notes this was the copy used by the language officers in Peking....kind of a neat little item considering a Language Officers letters is what started me on this quest. Dirk, It's not surprising that the Navy flip-flopped during the approperiation stages for foreign language studies and that local Commander seeked non-sanctioned opportunities to learn the language and encouraged or ordered the men to do the same. I also recall reading somewhere about the YMCA offering Chinese Language class too. In the next week or so I'll post up an image of 15th Infantry Menu that has a group photo inside that shows about 4 or 5 NCO's wearing the "Chung" specialist rating on their cuffs. They're sitting in two or three rows with their cooks and bakers flanking them and I think their company guidon is also shown. I hadn't looked at in a while and it is over in Honolulu in a friends collection. But in the mean time here's a look at his "Chung" patch. Front and back images attached. Aloha, John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiaiokalewa Posted April 17, 2008 Share #44 Posted April 17, 2008 The backside of the "Chung" patch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirk Posted April 17, 2008 Author Share #45 Posted April 17, 2008 John: Great stuff! Cant wait to see the photo....Now I'll got to back and look at my 15th guys and see what turns up Dirk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teufelhunde.ret Posted September 22, 2011 Share #46 Posted September 22, 2011 Bump - just came across this thread while searching another topic. The new folks should enjoy this thread from years back. If your not aware, Dirk has a website: chinamarine.org A great site with much more on the topic... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottplen Posted June 21, 2014 Share #47 Posted June 21, 2014 Here is a chung patch i just picked up off the forum . They seem to be pretty rare ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pip Posted June 30, 2014 Share #48 Posted June 30, 2014 Very cool Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suwanneetrader Posted June 30, 2014 Share #49 Posted June 30, 2014 Another older USMC historical posting that I had not seen. Thanks for bumping it from the 2008 forum posting. Richard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirk Posted July 3, 2014 Author Share #50 Posted July 3, 2014 Great patch! Yep I think they are rare Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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