DKNYC71 Posted August 17, 2013 Author Share #51 Posted August 17, 2013 I hope these images show all the relevant aspects, these sort of threads is the purpose of such a great forum such as this. Thanks, Dave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sgtdorango Posted August 17, 2013 Share #52 Posted August 17, 2013 Thats a really nice M1C you have there!....M1C shells can be found in four different configurations.... 1) front seam stainless rim 2) front seam manganese rim 3) rear seam stainless rim 4) rear seam manganese rim there are also a few different chinstrap configurations, a while ago i made an M1C timeline chart (unofficial) i will try to post it here when i get a chance this weekend....mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DKNYC71 Posted August 17, 2013 Author Share #53 Posted August 17, 2013 Thanks mIke gor your comments, what sort do I have here, and what would be the approx date? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ken88 Posted August 17, 2013 Share #54 Posted August 17, 2013 Mike, Any evidence M-1Cs had stainless rim material with a front seam? I've yet to see one.. @DKNYC71 Have you tried researching the trooper yet? Might shed some new light on it... Really nice M-1C! Seems your helmet was worn by a technician 5th grade. Cool. Cheers, Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DKNYC71 Posted August 17, 2013 Author Share #55 Posted August 17, 2013 Thanks, the trooper was with the 542nd PIR/PIB this outfit never left the States. They conducted training, experimental work, and many other stateside functions. This trooper enlisted in 1942 and discharged early February 1946. He held this rank of T5 from Oct 44 - May 45, at which time he was promoted to SSGT. I would be interested to learn approx when this helmet might have been manufactured. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grant G. Posted August 17, 2013 Share #56 Posted August 17, 2013 I would be interested to learn approx when this helmet might have been manufactured. Your heat stamp of 1104A is very close to my 1106B, yours was possibly manufactured two batches prior to my helmet, and according to the book "Helmets of the E.TO." I think you could reasonably assume your helmet was manufactured in November 1944. -Grant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Kravets Posted August 17, 2013 Share #57 Posted August 17, 2013 Thanks mIke gor your comments, what sort do I have here ? 2) front seam manganese rim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralCheese Posted August 17, 2013 Share #58 Posted August 17, 2013 Thats a really nice M1C you have there!....M1C shells can be found in four different configurations.... 1) front seam stainless rim 2) front seam manganese rim 3) rear seam stainless rim 4) rear seam manganese rim there are also a few different chinstrap configurations, a while ago i made an M1C timeline chart (unofficial) i will try to post it here when i get a chance this weekend....mike I have never seen a rear seam stainless rim. Can you post a picture of one? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DKNYC71 Posted August 17, 2013 Author Share #59 Posted August 17, 2013 Your heat stamp of 1104A is very close to my 1106B, yours was possibly manufactured two batches prior to my helmet, and according to the book "Helmets of the E.TO." I think you could reasonably assume your helmet was manufactured in November 1944. -GrantI Thank you very much Grant! So is it safe to say that the Westinghouse liner is the same vintage (Nov 44)? And what about the 4 hole chincup? The entire rig came together and had never been separated, does it then imply that brass eyelets as well as the brass male snaps along with the manganese rim were manufactured as early as Nov 44??? This is really a great discussion and I think very beneficial to the whole community! Thanks again to everyone for their most valued input. Let's keep the knowledge flowing..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabrejet Posted August 17, 2013 Share #60 Posted August 17, 2013 The original specifications for the web chin-brace specified ten brass eyelets. However, brass had been declared a strategic material so initial production batches substituted zinc. The ten holes then became eight. Brass would probably have only have been used very late war and definitely post-war. Your brace is well-used but appears not to be a first generation "yellow" one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DKNYC71 Posted August 17, 2013 Author Share #61 Posted August 17, 2013 The original specifications for the web chin-brace specified ten brass eyelets. However, brass had been declared a strategic material so initial production batches substituted zinc. The ten holes then became eight. Brass would probably have only have been used very late war and definitely post-war. Your brace is well-used but appears not to be a first generation "yellow" one. So do you feel that the web chincup is post war? Seems odd, since the shell and liner are of NOV 44 manufacture, and the trooper was promoted in MAY 45 to SSGT and became supply clerk as opposed to his combat MOS while a T5, which would probably preclude him from jumps and FTXs, furthermore the rig has always been together, it was obtained from the son of the vet who had passed away in 1984. I would love to hear from our helmet/M1C experts who have already commented earlier, whether these web 4 hole chincups with brass eyelets were produced during the war? Again, many thanks to everyone for their valued opinions and feedback!!! This is a wonderful thread!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sgtdorango Posted August 17, 2013 Share #62 Posted August 17, 2013 Most guys will say that WWII cups only had the zinc eyelets but ive always thought they snuck brass eyelets in at the end of the war when brass was more available and the shortage was over, just a theory but no proof, although your cup could be thought of as proof of that!.....i will try to post some pics of the rear seam stainless rim M1Cs i have, ive been out all day and away from my computer with all the photos on it....the unofficial list i posted can also be thought of as the timeframe of when they were produced and also a good indication of value/prices with the front seam stainless rim being the top dog.....just want to say again what a killer front seam manganese rim M1C you have there!....mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DKNYC71 Posted August 18, 2013 Author Share #63 Posted August 18, 2013 Thanks Mike for your valued expert input. When you state late war, when approx. do you think? Also when did they start manufacturing manganese rims?? Again, the rig all came together about 10-15 years ago from the vets son, the vet passed away in 1984. After MAY 1945 the vet was a SSgt and a supply clerk and no longer in a combat MOS as he was when a T5. I will post images of the liner, the shell and the liner are marked with his ASN, the liner also has his T5 rank on it and his ASN stamped above the rank. I would doubt that he would replace the web chincup later, I would assume the chincup would be the same vintage as the rest of the helmet. Thanks for your continued input and education, input such as yours is very valuable since not many have such a developed expertise in a specific area like this. There are a few other folks here that also speak with great expertise on the subject matter that really know and not just guessing with a few years of limited experience, I think everyone can further learn from their valued input Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DKNYC71 Posted August 18, 2013 Author Share #64 Posted August 18, 2013 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DKNYC71 Posted August 18, 2013 Author Share #65 Posted August 18, 2013 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DKNYC71 Posted August 18, 2013 Author Share #66 Posted August 18, 2013 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DKNYC71 Posted August 18, 2013 Author Share #67 Posted August 18, 2013 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabrejet Posted August 18, 2013 Share #68 Posted August 18, 2013 Not that you'd ever remove it, but the leather chinstrap with its green hardware is a $100+ item in its own right! That's the kind of money they're selling for at the moment. In fact, such chinstraps were early war items, but my M1C actually has one on it too! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DKNYC71 Posted August 18, 2013 Author Share #69 Posted August 18, 2013 Mike, it would be great to see the chart you had created of dates / manufacturing types / values, etc...I could not locate it on the forum. Also when you stated 'late war' on the chincup, what dates approx. do you think? It would also be great to hear from our helmet experts any additional comments/assessment of the chincup and liner, I had posted images above. Again, I have no reason to think the chincup with the brass eyelets has ever been added to the rig. Thanks Again Everyone!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sgtdorango Posted August 18, 2013 Share #70 Posted August 18, 2013 Heres a chart i made, its just my unofficial theory!.....it was intended to be just an M1C timeline but i have added the M2 and fixed bail airborne version...some collectors have different opinions on whether the fixed bail para came before or after the M2.....also note the slightly different chinstrap configurations found on the M1Cs...there is also the heatstamp numbers that are mostly in the same range for these M1Cs.....nothing is set in stone and actual documentation hasnt been found , the order of the different versions seem logical to collectors and it could be as simple as the factory was just using up old material like the stainless rims and could have just made different batches in different configurations on different days randomly...theres actually alot to these M1Cs as far as variations go and the values start very high for the front seam stainless with OD3 khaki straps and the final version being the rear seam manganese rim with OD7 straps with the variations in between....also the chart is still a work in progress!......mike U.S. AIRBORNE HELMET TIMELINE M2 D-Bail OD#3 paratrooper chinstraps with Chrome male snaps Front seam stainless steel rim M1 Fixed Bail OD#3 paratrooper chinstraps with blackened brass male snaps Front seam stainless steel rim M1C Swivel Bail - Front Seam Stainless Steel Rim OD#3 paratrooper chinstraps with blackened brass male snaps M1C Swivel Bail - Front Seam Stainless Steel Rim OD#7 paratrooper chinstraps with blackened brass male snaps M1C Swivel Bail - Front Seam Manganese Steel Rim OD#3 paratrooper chinstraps with blackened brass male snaps M1C Swivel Bail - Front Seam Manganese Steel Rim OD#7 paratrooper chinstraps with blackened brass male snaps M1C Swivel Bail - Rear Seam Stainless Steel Rim OD#7 paratrooper chinstraps with blackened brass male snaps M1C Swivel Bail - Rear Seam Manganese Steel Rim OD#7 paratrooper chinstraps with blackened brass male snaps M1C Swivel Bail - Rear Seam Manganese Steel Rim OD#7 paratrooper chinstraps with blackened brass male snaps Double stitched para chinstraps Last Version.....Improvement or Manufactures Variation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabrejet Posted August 18, 2013 Share #71 Posted August 18, 2013 Good bit of research Mike...very useful...well done. I only need about seven more variants to complete my collection!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ken88 Posted August 18, 2013 Share #72 Posted August 18, 2013 I'd like to see some pictures of the M-1Cs with stainless front seam rim. M1 Fixed Bail OD#3 paratrooper chinstraps with blackened brass male snaps Front seam stainless steel rim To my knowledge these tend to have nickle snaps as the straps were mostly salvaged from M2 helmets. The chart could also include other rigger modifications such as the helmets with the mess kit rings or the 517th PRCT helmets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cgutierrez Posted August 18, 2013 Share #73 Posted August 18, 2013 Mike, very useful listing. Thanks. I have two paratrooper helmets. One is is the swivel bail, front seam, stainless steel rim with a heat lot number of 884J. The chinstraps are OD#7 with 11-row weave. Would a helmet in this lot number be considered an M1C or a "field modified". The stitching does not look any different than any of my other original sewn strap helmets. My second helmet is a swivel bail, front seam, manganesse rim with a heat lot number of 1131. The chinstraps are OD#7 with a 10-row weave. It would seem that in such a late heat lot number that the ream would be rear seam. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DKNYC71 Posted August 18, 2013 Author Share #74 Posted August 18, 2013 Heres a chart i made, its just my unofficial theory!.....it was intended to be just an M1C timeline but i have added the M2 and fixed bail airborne version...some collectors have different opinions on whether the fixed bail para came before or after the M2.....also note the slightly different chinstrap configurations found on the M1Cs...there is also the heatstamp numbers that are mostly in the same range for these M1Cs.....nothing is set in stone and actual documentation hasnt been found , the order of the different versions seem logical to collectors and it could be as simple as the factory was just using up old material like the stainless rims and could have just made different batches in different configurations on different days randomly...theres actually alot to these M1Cs as far as variations go and the values start very high for the front seam stainless with OD3 khaki straps and the final version being the rear seam manganese rim with OD7 straps with the variations in between....also the chart is still a work in progress!......mike U.S. AIRBORNE HELMET TIMELINE M2 D-Bail OD#3 paratrooper chinstraps with Chrome male snaps Front seam stainless steel rim M1 Fixed Bail OD#3 paratrooper chinstraps with blackened brass male snaps Front seam stainless steel rim M1C Swivel Bail - Front Seam Stainless Steel Rim OD#3 paratrooper chinstraps with blackened brass male snaps M1C Swivel Bail - Front Seam Stainless Steel Rim OD#7 paratrooper chinstraps with blackened brass male snaps M1C Swivel Bail - Front Seam Manganese Steel Rim OD#3 paratrooper chinstraps with blackened brass male snaps M1C Swivel Bail - Front Seam Manganese Steel Rim OD#7 paratrooper chinstraps with blackened brass male snaps M1C Swivel Bail - Rear Seam Stainless Steel Rim OD#7 paratrooper chinstraps with blackened brass male snaps M1C Swivel Bail - Rear Seam Manganese Steel Rim OD#7 paratrooper chinstraps with blackened brass male snaps M1C Swivel Bail - Rear Seam Manganese Steel Rim OD#7 paratrooper chinstraps with blackened brass male snaps Double stitched para chinstraps Last Version.....Improvement or Manufactures Variation? do you Awesome research Mike! You deserve credit for such nice work!! When do you think production started for: M1C Swivel Bail - Front Seam Manganese Steel Rim OD#3 paratrooper chinstraps with blackened brass male snaps I will post my friends swivel bail in the next few days that belonged to the 307th AEB vet. Also, when do you think "late war" web chincups with brass eyelets might have been manufactured? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sgtdorango Posted August 18, 2013 Share #75 Posted August 18, 2013 Thanks fellow helmet dudes!.....i will try to post some pics of my rear seam stainless M1Cs today, the late war cups i would consider to be very late 1944 (Nov/Dec)-45 and maybe just 45 but this is just a guess and my opinion....i dont know how large a batch the factory were making, they could have been making them steadily or large orders at a time...also right at the end of WWII the US was really ramping up their Airborne forces preparing to jump into Berlin (which never happened) and preparing for the very large scale invasion of Japan (which thankfully never happened either) and lots of equipment was needed and surely ordered, maybe even the supply line finally caught up too at wars end...also immediate post war the Airborne forces were training very many paratroopers during the Occupation of Japan and germany.....lots of equipment was needed at that time, definitely wartime stock was used but im sure they were ordering lots of stuff too, including M1C helmets, para liners (which is a whole other can of worms) and of course replacement parts like chin cups, chinstraps sweatbands, nape straps etc....this is also the era where "rigger" para reinforced /sewn chinstraps and "rigger" para liners were common and took place to fill the need for equipment..(45-50)....mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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