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British-made Para-Glider Badge?


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#1 Senator57

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Posted 04 April 2008 - 07:35 PM

Greetings-

I want to get your opinions on this Para-Glider badge, which I've been told is British-designed. As you can see, the reverse is unmarked and completely flat. It has a hinge pin (which seems to be made of brass) with a fat "C" hook catch. Do you think this is a good wing or restrike? I don't have any experience with Para-Glider badges. Thanks for your help.

-Frank

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ParaGlider_Rev.jpg

#2 J_Andrews

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Posted 05 April 2008 - 05:32 PM

This, and other British-made Para-Glider badges are complete FAKEs.

Think on it:

The badge was never authorized Army-wide.

It was created within the 11th Airborne Division and the originals made where the Div was serving at the time: JAPAN (1945-1948). they were all STERLING BTW.

Why would it have been made in the UK?

#3 Gary Cain

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Posted 06 April 2008 - 07:24 PM

While I agree the badge in question is a modern construction the other information is incorrect. There is plenty of photographic evidence showing these in use in the ETO and there are plenty of collectors(myself included) who have British made paraglider wings that were obtained from the men themselves.


Gary

This, and other British-made Para-Glider badges are complete FAKEs.

Think on it:

The badge was never authorized Army-wide.

It was created within the 11th Airborne Division and the originals made where the Div was serving at the time: JAPAN (1945-1948). they were all STERLING BTW.

Why would it have been made in the UK?



#4 glenm

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Posted 11 April 2008 - 03:31 AM

Hi Gary,

That's interesting re the photographic evidence of their use in the ETO - can you direct me to some please, as I'd like to see this?

Cheers,
Glen.

#5 pfrost

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Posted 11 April 2008 - 04:39 AM

Hi Gary,

That's interesting re the photographic evidence of their use in the ETO - can you direct me to some please, as I'd like to see this?

Cheers,
Glen.


A point concerning the wing itself. Why do you think this wing is British made? This style of pin is not strictly limited to England. This style of pin is seen in wings made in Australia, the CBI theater, and the middle east. It is a common feature (although not always 100%) on many wings and insignia made in the British Commonwealth and/or British influenced countries.


WHile it is hard to say for sure, I have some general doubts on this wing...BUT from what I see, it COULD have been made in the CBI or Australia or somewhere else in the PTO. Again, I see no reason to assume that this wing is made in the UK other than the pin.

Just some observations.

Patrick

#6 Gary Cain

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Posted 11 April 2008 - 12:10 PM

Hi Patrick,

The only CBI made variants that would use this pin type would be from India or Cairo, everyone else used whatever was close to hand(some were quite crude). This particular wing is flat and if you look at the risers on the 'chute itself they are very shallow. These are characteristics of modern strikes. The only para wing I have from the PTO is a K.G.Luke made wing and it does indeed use this type of pin but it is much nicer.


Cheers
Gary

A point concerning the wing itself. Why do you think this wing is British made? This style of pin is not strictly limited to England. This style of pin is seen in wings made in Australia, the CBI theater, and the middle east. It is a common feature (although not always 100%) on many wings and insignia made in the British Commonwealth and/or British influenced countries.
WHile it is hard to say for sure, I have some general doubts on this wing...BUT from what I see, it COULD have been made in the CBI or Australia or somewhere else in the PTO. Again, I see no reason to assume that this wing is made in the UK other than the pin.

Just some observations.

Patrick



#7 Gary Cain

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Posted 11 April 2008 - 12:11 PM

Gentlemen,

I have to say I owe you all a big apology. I suffered a massive brain fart and was thinking of the glider rider wing and not the para glider(though I certainly wrote para glider in one of the posts!) The paraglider wing as pictured is still not period and yes indeed the 11th is I think the only unit to ever use them. I have one made by Meyer (which is probably a post war restrike). They were created overseas(and unauthorised) and K.G. Luke would have made them I am certain(though I have yet to see one in person), so once again please accept my apologies for a stupid error!


Gary





Hi Gary,

That's interesting re the photographic evidence of their use in the ETO - can you direct me to some please, as I'd like to see this?

Cheers,
Glen.


Edited by Gary Cain, 11 April 2008 - 12:22 PM.


#8 glenm

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Posted 11 April 2008 - 12:40 PM

Hi Gary,

That's okay, thanks for your posting above. I was wondering where you were going with your initial posting re their use in the ETO, but you've retracted that now, so we're a-ok.

These wings were reproduced by the same person from England who did the Gaunt para wing restrikes, and these repros also feature the British-type pin back - they have subsequently been reproduced (to a lesser quality) again, off one of the UK-made repros by the looks of it, this new batch featuring the same British-type pin. It is these repros with the British-type pin that has made some people believe that the para-glider wing was also used in the ETO, but I'm glad you've made sure that you don't fall into that category.

Cheers,
Glen.

#9 pfrost

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Posted 11 April 2008 - 12:51 PM

Hi Patrick,

The only CBI made variants that would use this pin type would be from India or Cairo, everyone else used whatever was close to hand(some were quite crude). This particular wing is flat and if you look at the risers on the 'chute itself they are very shallow. These are characteristics of modern strikes. The only para wing I have from the PTO is a K.G.Luke made wing and it does indeed use this type of pin but it is much nicer.
Cheers
Gary


Howdy,

You believe you are wrong Gary, this pin type can be seen from wings all over the world. Right now, I even have a Saudia Arabian wing with this type of pin, and recently saw a wing hallmarked Tehran with this type of pin. In fact, I have a CNAC wing (made in China) with this type of pin/hinge. Of course not all wings from this area used this type of pin set up, but it was very common. The point is that the original post asked if this was a good wing "which I've been told is British-designed". The argument was made that this insignia was worn in the PTO, thus the wing would be fake since it isnt likely to have been made in England. However, this type of pin was used on many wings from the ETO (UK made wings) the PTO (ie Australia), the CBI and the middle east.

I dont think the wing is good myself, BUT there is no reason to assume that it UK made based on the pin.

Patrick

Edited by pfrost, 11 April 2008 - 12:53 PM.


#10 Gary Cain

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Posted 11 April 2008 - 02:02 PM

Hi Patrick,

I was of course referring to WWII period pin assemblies and not what is currently being made. This type of pin is rarely seen on CBI made insignia(most commonly associated with insignia made in Calcutta and of course Bombay) I have seen very few pieces with this pin assembly from China(WWII period manufacture, not today) but they are not common at all(three pieces out of probably 500 I have seen or posessed, and I would not be surprised if they were immediate post war made due to the quality. One thing I have noticed is with the exception of the very rare ivory wings I have seen the metal work from China is very poor, their SSI work especially the bullion work is exceptional, but their metal insignia is crap). I have a couple of pieces of US and Commonwealth insignia that came from Cairo that used this pin assembly as well.
As you noted, and I had pointed out prior to your comment, Australian or New Zealand manufactured wings also use this assembly.
After WWII the British style pin was indeed used in a lot of areas where the English had reigned(or engaged in occupation duty) but we were discussing a WWII piece and not a modern one.


Gary

Howdy,

You believe you are wrong Gary, this pin type can be seen from wings all over the world. Right now, I even have a Saudia Arabian wing with this type of pin, and recently saw a wing hallmarked Tehran with this type of pin. In fact, I have a CNAC wing (made in China) with this type of pin/hinge. Of course not all wings from this area used this type of pin set up, but it was very common. The point is that the original post asked if this was a good wing "which I've been told is British-designed". The argument was made that this insignia was worn in the PTO, thus the wing would be fake since it isnt likely to have been made in England. However, this type of pin was used on many wings from the ETO (UK made wings) the PTO (ie Australia), the CBI and the middle east.

I dont think the wing is good myself, BUT there is no reason to assume that it UK made based on the pin.

Patrick



#11 Gary Cain

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Posted 11 April 2008 - 02:13 PM

Hi Glen,

No problem! If I am wrong I am wrong(and boy was I wrong!) I was involved in a discussion here at my shop about glider rider wings and that got transposed into the discussion here on the forum and I wasn't paying attention to what the subject was and ...well that's how it transpired!

As far as the maker of these I knew about the knucklehead doing the Gaunt strikes (I loved his Gaunt cards that they were mounted on) but does anyone have an idea who is cranking these out?


Cheers
Gary






Hi Gary,

That's okay, thanks for your posting above. I was wondering where you were going with your initial posting re their use in the ETO, but you've retracted that now, so we're a-ok.

These wings were reproduced by the same person from England who did the Gaunt para wing restrikes, and these repros also feature the British-type pin back - they have subsequently been reproduced (to a lesser quality) again, off one of the UK-made repros by the looks of it, this new batch featuring the same British-type pin. It is these repros with the British-type pin that has made some people believe that the para-glider wing was also used in the ETO, but I'm glad you've made sure that you don't fall into that category.

Cheers,
Glen.



#12 pfrost

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Posted 11 April 2008 - 03:02 PM

Gary,

You are wrong here. I have a couple of Chinese made wings and both have the "British style" pin. As for quality, I have two exquiste chinse made CNAC wings of extraordinary quality (posted here http://www.ww2wings....chinacnac.shtml] )one of which has the British style catch, the other which has had it broken off in the past.

Also, I would tell you to look at the Chinese Air Force wings (here is an example http://www.ww2wings....esepilot2.shtml ), they frequently have the British style pin. In fact, if you go to Bob's page on Chinese wings, you can see that almost 1/2 of the wings have the British style pin. You are correct, not all of the wings have this style, but many do.

But again, none of this negates the point of my original post. A wing with this type of pin can indeed be from someplace other than the UK. For some reason you continue to try to pick arguments with me, and I dont understand what your problem is here?

Finally, here is a Saudi wing that also has the British style pin.

So basically, you can find this pin pattern used on wings made from London to Brisbane and many places in between.

Patrick




Hi Patrick,

I was of course referring to WWII period pin assemblies and not what is currently being made. This type of pin is rarely seen on CBI made insignia(most commonly associated with insignia made in Calcutta and of course Bombay) I have seen very few pieces with this pin assembly from China(WWII period manufacture, not today) but they are not common at all(three pieces out of probably 500 I have seen or posessed, and I would not be surprised if they were immediate post war made due to the quality. One thing I have noticed is with the exception of the very rare ivory wings I have seen the metal work from China is very poor, their SSI work especially the bullion work is exceptional, but their metal insignia is crap). I have a couple of pieces of US and Commonwealth insignia that came from Cairo that used this pin assembly as well.
As you noted, and I had pointed out prior to your comment, Australian or New Zealand manufactured wings also use this assembly.
After WWII the British style pin was indeed used in a lot of areas where the English had reigned(or engaged in occupation duty) but we were discussing a WWII piece and not a modern one.
Gary

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  • saudiwing.jpg

Edited by pfrost, 11 April 2008 - 03:04 PM.


#13 Gary Cain

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Posted 11 April 2008 - 08:20 PM

Hi Patrick,

Would you mind showing the back of the CNAC wings. I would bet they were made in Hong Kong(very British) or Shanghai(also pretty British and remember you are talking 1929-1937-38 for when these wings are being made not WWII when Hong Kong and Shanghai are under Japanese rule)and not in the hinterland where the WWII stuff would have been made. Also please note I said I had seen them, just that they were uncommon. As for your Saudi wings, I wonder who trained them?....perhaps the British? I have several friends who still fly for the Saudi royal family who are English, most of what the Saudis buy is from foreign makers, including and especially jewelry, oh yes and machine guns (go HK!). Most CBI wings were made in India(where the vast majority of transport squadrons were based) which is why you see the Brit style pins on them as I stated before the stuff actually made in China(with the exception of the SSI's) was pretty crude. Stuff made in India was from crude to exceptional. The Bombay mint put out some very nice stuff indeed. On one of my trips to India I found some of the stuff in an antique shop in Pondicherry (a French colony till 1954) of all places!

American stuff was made in China after the Japanese had kicked everyone out of the manufacturing areas. That's why everything, and I mean everything had to be flown over the Hump. Even post WWII it was difficult to get anything made in China. A good friend of mine Howard Spreeman was in Hong Kong and Tsingtao after the war(till 1947) and he says the only thing you could get was the clap! :lol: :lol:

As far as picking a fight with you I wasn't! If you read my post again I was confirming what you were saying. I was just making the point that China was not a place that used this type of pin assembly very often. That is the only point I have been arguing.

Gary





Gary,

You are wrong here. I have a couple of Chinese made wings and both have the "British style" pin. As for quality, I have two exquiste chinse made CNAC wings of extraordinary quality (posted here http://www.ww2wings....chinacnac.shtml] )one of which has the British style catch, the other which has had it broken off in the past.

Also, I would tell you to look at the Chinese Air Force wings (here is an example http://www.ww2wings....esepilot2.shtml ), they frequently have the British style pin. In fact, if you go to Bob's page on Chinese wings, you can see that almost 1/2 of the wings have the British style pin. You are correct, not all of the wings have this style, but many do.

But again, none of this negates the point of my original post. A wing with this type of pin can indeed be from someplace other than the UK. For some reason you continue to try to pick arguments with me, and I dont understand what your problem is here?

Finally, here is a Saudi wing that also has the British style pin.

So basically, you can find this pin pattern used on wings made from London to Brisbane and many places in between.

Patrick




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