Jump to content


Photo

USMC WWII "Frogskin" Covers - Rethinking The Norm


  • Please log in to reply
307 replies to this topic

#26 pump 150

pump 150
  • Members
    • Member ID: 98,601
  • 555 posts

Posted 05 June 2013 - 11:13 AM

1952

Attached Images

  • 1952 2.jpg
  • 1952 5.jpg


#27 pump 150

pump 150
  • Members
    • Member ID: 98,601
  • 555 posts

Posted 05 June 2013 - 11:14 AM

1952

Attached Images

  • 1952 6.jpg
  • 1952 7.jpg


#28 pump 150

pump 150
  • Members
    • Member ID: 98,601
  • 555 posts

Posted 05 June 2013 - 11:17 AM

1952

This one has a lot going on - 2" netting with helmet band - follow me bars - burlap cover - and a no foliage slit USMC cover

Attached Images

  • 1952 4.jpg


#29 pump 150

pump 150
  • Members
    • Member ID: 98,601
  • 555 posts

Posted 05 June 2013 - 11:19 AM

Camp Pendleton - Feb 1953 Marines who volunteered for another tour in Korea

Attached Images

  • 1953.jpg
  • 1953 2.jpg


#30 pump 150

pump 150
  • Members
    • Member ID: 98,601
  • 555 posts

Posted 05 June 2013 - 11:22 AM

1953

Attached Images

  • korea.jpg
  • 1953 3.jpg


#31 Bellumbill

Bellumbill
  • Members
    • Member ID: 661
  • 737 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Midwest

Posted 05 June 2013 - 11:27 AM

Guys, what about this?  Norman Hatch, Tarawa - Best, Bill K.

 

wwii-in-hd-norman-hatch-kitten-lou-reda-



#32 pump 150

pump 150
  • Members
    • Member ID: 98,601
  • 555 posts

Posted 05 June 2013 - 11:39 AM

That's pretty much my basis for the very late WWII production with little use during the war, but used much later. All opinions are welcome, good and bad. And it could all be thrown out the window with one good photo from 1943. But that would be great too, just looking for the best answers.

With so little info, by the looks it could be said that the no foliage slit cover was produced during the Korean War - but I'm not even going to stand on that limb at this time.

While covers with foliage slits can be seen used throughout the Korean war, I think most believe that the 1953 produced covers did not make it to Korea before the war ended, by the photos it would appear that the no foliage slit frogskin cover was quite possibly the most common USMC cover used during Korea. Opinions?

It would also help explain how so many no slit covers were in service and had the post Korean War EGA's applied.

1958 Boot Camp

1958 shipping out to Cuba

Thanks for looking and all opinions welcome

Bill

Attached Images

  • 1958.jpg
  • 1958 (2).jpg


#33 Bellumbill

Bellumbill
  • Members
    • Member ID: 661
  • 737 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Midwest

Posted 05 June 2013 - 11:54 AM

Pump 150 - In your photo in post #17, what about the marine grabbing the ammo belts off another marine?  Also, what about the dead marine in the foreground?  Both of the those photos look like they could be non-slit covers to me.  Its seems you might have a photo tool that allows you to enlarge and focus more than I am able to. 

 

Best,

 

Bill K.



#34 Bellumbill

Bellumbill
  • Members
    • Member ID: 661
  • 737 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Midwest

Posted 05 June 2013 - 11:56 AM

Also, guys, please check out the photo I posted in post #31 of Norman Hatch on Tarawa.  Don't want it to get lost in the deluge of other photos - Again, looks like a no-slit to me?

 

Best,

 

Bill K.



#35 38Driver

38Driver
  • Members
    • Member ID: 68,384
  • 2,093 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Rosemount, Minnesota

Posted 05 June 2013 - 01:04 PM

David Duncan Douglas's book "This is War" about Korea has some fantastic photos.  Both slits and no slits.

 

None

KoreaNo_zps977569df.jpg

 

None

KoreaNo2_zps5809d4f3.jpg

 

Slits

Koreayes_zps14170763.jpg

 

Slits

KoreaYes2_zps65d2313f.jpg

 

Slits

KoreaYes3_zpsd2fe7f54.jpg

 

One of each

KoreaYesNo_zpsf64426a7.jpg



#36 Justin

Justin
  • Members
    • Member ID: 2,305
  • 9,962 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:New York.

Posted 05 June 2013 - 01:06 PM

Think marines ever got to talking?

"Hey why doesn't mine have slits!?"

#37 38Driver

38Driver
  • Members
    • Member ID: 68,384
  • 2,093 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Rosemount, Minnesota

Posted 05 June 2013 - 01:18 PM

Doesn't appear to be any slits visible in the Tarawa image from the Google LIFE archives

http://www.gstatic.c...3937684ee_large

#38 pump 150

pump 150
  • Members
    • Member ID: 98,601
  • 555 posts

Posted 05 June 2013 - 01:23 PM

Nope, just a helmet nerd like me. HaHaHa

Bill, you could very well be right, stated that it is really hard to tell for sure in the photos of the early battles. Could different makers have made them at the same time - very possible. Just don't see them at all like later. It's just a theory, looking for answers if possible.

Driver, great photos, yep the slit covers were seen as well, but I was very surprised to see so many of the others. Another question looking for possible best guesses

Thanks or the comments

#39 Bellumbill

Bellumbill
  • Members
    • Member ID: 661
  • 737 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Midwest

Posted 05 June 2013 - 02:44 PM

Pump -

 

I guess I am not convinced that in WWII you might not see just as much of a mix of slit versus non slit covers as you do in the Korean War the only difference being just more and/or perhaps better photos in the Korean War?  Think of it, the technology of photography had significantly advanced by the 1950s, in large part due to the experiences with the technology and its use in WWII.  Secondly, the mere fact that the Korean War was an isolated conflict, unlike WWII which was world wide, meant every combat and news photographer in the world was in Korea, meaning more expansive coverage.   This "theory" makes for a shift in the conversation away from which covers were worn when to a conversation about the efficacy of using photographic "evidence" as the main way of trying to prove our theories.  

 

That said, fellas, keep the pics coming - Don't let me "kill" the spirit of the thread. :)   

 

Best,

Bill



#40 38Driver

38Driver
  • Members
    • Member ID: 68,384
  • 2,093 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Rosemount, Minnesota

Posted 05 June 2013 - 03:24 PM

Almost forgot this guy.  Scary how many books there are to look through when I really want to find something!

 

WW2 slits

WW2slits_zps79a2b626.jpg



#41 Bellumbill

Bellumbill
  • Members
    • Member ID: 661
  • 737 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Midwest

Posted 05 June 2013 - 04:07 PM

Pump -

 

Question for you:  In your original post you say that you are looking for one good, clear photo of a marine wearing a non slit cover early in the war and it seems we have all sort of taken it for granted that means Tarawa.  Later you seem to shift and say that from what you can tell non-slit helmet covers don't seem to be worn with the same frequency in WWII as they were during the Korean War.  Obviously, these are very different questions. 

 

NOT trying to be a jerk at all, just trying to clarify to help focus our reasearch here.  Are you looking for ANY evidence that non-slit covers were in fact EVER worn in WWII or evidence of the amount that they were worn in WWII?  Or perhaps you are looking to determine BOTH cases?  Were non-slit covers worn and, if so, when or to what frequency they were worn?      

 

Very interesting thread -

 

Very best!

 

Bill K.



#42 38Driver

38Driver
  • Members
    • Member ID: 68,384
  • 2,093 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Rosemount, Minnesota

Posted 05 June 2013 - 05:39 PM

Tried to blow up the image of the Tarawa Marine giving water to the kitten.  Sure looks no slits

Noslitww2_zpsc47d1485.jpg

 

Another from a book on Tarawa that appear to not have slits

Tarawanoslit_zps946bd488.jpg

 

Iwo Marine.  Appears to not have slits

Notsure2_zps0ff5aab1.jpg

 

Cape Gloucester.  Appears not to have slits.

Notsure3_zpsd469cd8e.jpg



#43 38Driver

38Driver
  • Members
    • Member ID: 68,384
  • 2,093 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Rosemount, Minnesota

Posted 05 June 2013 - 05:50 PM

The Korea Marine images from the Duncan Douglas book were all 1950 that I posted previously.

 

2 no doubters on WW2 no slit covers.  Both African American Marines on Iwo

AAIwoMarinenoslit_zpscca00963.jpg

 

AAIwo2_zps246df078.jpg



#44 jkash23686

jkash23686
  • Banned
    • Member ID: 22,057
  • 5,587 posts
  • Gender:Not Telling

Posted 05 June 2013 - 06:13 PM

I haven't had too many of these in my collection since its not my area of focus, but I have to say I'm finding this topic pretty darn interesting. 



#45 Justin

Justin
  • Members
    • Member ID: 2,305
  • 9,962 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:New York.

Posted 05 June 2013 - 06:21 PM

Almost forgot this guy.  Scary how many books there are to look through when I really want to find something!
 
WW2 slits
WW2slits_zps79a2b626.jpg


This photo has often been used as prof of EGA's on helmet covers during WWII. With these very clear photos its definitely not an EGA. Name marked on the cover? - I know off topic!

#46 38Driver

38Driver
  • Members
    • Member ID: 68,384
  • 2,093 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Rosemount, Minnesota

Posted 05 June 2013 - 07:02 PM

Having fun hunting for photos.  Wish this wasn't a two page image, but it's a no doubter again.  Iwo photo.  The helmet being worn on the left clearly has the slits.  The other two clearly do not.  As the lighting is such that the slits show clearly on the one helmet, I'm hard pressed to suggest you just can't see them on the other two.

 

Both_zps3fde9df6.jpg



#47 38Driver

38Driver
  • Members
    • Member ID: 68,384
  • 2,093 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Rosemount, Minnesota

Posted 05 June 2013 - 07:37 PM

This is a no doubt it has slits from Tarawa

Tarawaslits_zps2db1f57b.jpg

 

Two from Peleliu.  Definitely slits on the first. Doesn't appear to be any in the second.

PelileuYes_zpsa0c0f843.jpg

 

Pelilieunotsure_zps6e0577bc.jpg

 

Found a clearer view of that Cape Gloucester Marine.  Can't tell if what I marked is slits or wear and tear.

Gloster1_zpsa1b170e2.jpg

 

GlocesterQuestion_zpsa80ae845.jpg



#48 38Driver

38Driver
  • Members
    • Member ID: 68,384
  • 2,093 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Rosemount, Minnesota

Posted 05 June 2013 - 07:41 PM

Last one for tonight.  I'm enjoying the hunt.  Hope you don't mind the barrage of images.  Don't know if they helped but I've had fun :)

 

Tinian Marine.  Flaps out in back, and what appear to be slits in the cover.

Tinian_zps80fb2351.jpg



#49 pump 150

pump 150
  • Members
    • Member ID: 98,601
  • 555 posts

Posted 05 June 2013 - 08:18 PM

Hello Bill, No worries, if misunderstood then my mistake, was downsizing and posting like crazy Thanks for the heads up. Think your last sentence said it best.

As said at the beginning some feel that the "first model" no slit was made first and those with slits came later. If some feel that way then tried to show early photos that the spec written construction was made along side it also.

As for the good photo, I was thinking along the lines of those shown on Bougainville, Saipan, and Korea including those by Driver. There is little doubt about which is which there. Are there grey areas, you bet, I mentioned those on Bougainville, Tarawa, and Roi. The blow up of the marine on Roi I would not claim 100% either which way I leaned. But that's me.

As stated I'm looking for comments, opinions and good photos both ways in order to come to the best overall opinion of those interested in these. It was a theory based solely on confirmed photos as stated , I'm interested in hearing both sides.

While I do think they were made during WWII have never seen a good photo like those shown with slits throughout the war to say 100% "that's it". Looking for the "that's it" photos to prove it, looks like photos are coming in in droves. Very good, all photos and comments welcome, let me know how you guys feel on the matter.

Also forgot to mention my theory on why so many no slits seen post WWII.

With the upcoming invasion of mainland Japan the Marine Corps thought it would need thousands of marines in order to take the islands and ordered quantities of equipment needed including covers in order to supply the needs. The slits were deleted to save time and cost. Just a theory, but it has happened twice before during Desert Storm and GWOT. Thanks all

Edited by pump 150, 05 June 2013 - 08:47 PM.


#50 man860

man860
  • Members
    • Member ID: 771
  • 1,292 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:West

Posted 06 June 2013 - 11:45 AM

Thanks for posting this thread Bill, and everyone else.  This gives me an excuse to sit around all weekend watching WWII in HD.  Will be hunting through the footage...!




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users