Jump to content


MOH ribbon positioning

Started by MMA10mm , May 15 2013 09:17 AM

  • Please log in to reply
57 replies to this topic

#26 digi-shots

digi-shots
  • Members
    • Member ID: 4,361
  • 277 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Virginia

Posted 17 May 2013 - 06:09 AM

Not to hijack this thread, but I've wondered why sometimes you see 4 ribbons across, vs. 3 ribbons?

 

Here's a photo of William Donovan.  I've seen some pics of him with 4 ribbons across...

Attached Images

  • photo, Donovan MOH.jpg

Edited by digi-shots, 17 May 2013 - 06:12 AM.


#27 digi-shots

digi-shots
  • Members
    • Member ID: 4,361
  • 277 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Virginia

Posted 17 May 2013 - 06:13 AM

Sorry, here's a full pic...

 

 

Attached Images

  • photo, Donovan, MOH, 2.jpg


#28 firefighter

firefighter
  • Members
    • Member ID: 105,435
  • 5,939 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:CNY

Posted 17 May 2013 - 06:26 AM

No he could not change it as it was issued by the Army and not the Air Force. If you have ever looked at Marine personnel who were decorated by the Army with the Citation Star or DSC to include multiple awards, they have Oak Leaf Clusters and not Star do donate additional awards denoting awards in the WWI.
Contrary to some folks including CSMs regulations are guide lines and as far as the placement of the Medal Of Honor Ribbon, placing it by itself on a separate row is showing of respect to the award by the individual wearing the award. The Marine General wearing the award above the Navy Pilot Wings is differently different but I'm sure he had his reasons so I guess you who find it odd or unbecoming just have to live with it; as he received the award, is a general officer and therefore pretty much do what he wants when it comes to displaying the award. I have seen Medal of Honor Recipients wear just the MOH ribbon when everyone else is wearing all their awards and decorations and in a way I think it speaks volumes about the award itself.
Regards,
John

 

 

 

But say the pilot was awarded the MOH durn the Korean War as an AF pilot.The AF didn't have it's own MOH then so he was awarded the Army MOH.I thought they could switch to the AF version when it was finally approved?



#29 1SG_1st_Cav

1SG_1st_Cav
  • Members
    • Member ID: 1,691
  • 3,331 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Ohio

Posted 17 May 2013 - 09:21 AM

If you had earned an MOH, how would you place your ribbons?  If I had earned an MOH, and I had stars on my epaulets, I would wear them whatever way I chose to.  Who is going to correct you?

You are beating a dead horse [probably literally as most of the guys in the pictures are deceased].  Who among you is going to dig them up and crucify them????? Danny



#30 TRR

TRR
  • Members
    • Member ID: 110,009
  • 2,398 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:WNC

Posted 17 May 2013 - 09:51 AM

I don't think this conversation is looking to crucify anyone just because we are having a discussion about the different ways it was worn and if it was actually a regulation. No one has said they did anything wrong and all has been supported by pictures.



#31 Garth Thompson

Garth Thompson

    MODERATOR

  • Moderators
    • Member ID: 83
  • 3,053 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Germantown, TN

Posted 17 May 2013 - 10:29 AM

I think a MoH recipient can wear the ribbon in any fashion he chooses so long as it is in the first position of precedence. Who would have the nerve to correct them, only an idiot?



#32 emccomas

emccomas
  • Members
    • Member ID: 12,036
  • 2,248 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Madison, AL

Posted 17 May 2013 - 10:38 AM

This topic always seems to touch off the "who is going to correct them" debate.

 

It is a discussion about the regulations and the "correct" (according to the regulations) manner of wearing the ribbons and / or medals, including the MOH.  It is not about the individual recipients, or how they are wearing their decorations.

 

So here is a question...regulations say that you can either wear the large medals or the ribbons (for those decorations that have both), but not both the large medal and the ribbon representing the same decoration at the same time.

I think I got that right.

 

That makes sense when you think about decorations like Navy Cross, Good Conduct Medal, etc.  However, what about the Medal of Honor (on a neck suspension ribbon).  Both at the same time?  No ribbon if wearing the large medal?

Again, the questions are about what the regs say, not what recipients do.  I cannot find this specific issue addressed anywhere in the regs.



#33 Sal

Sal
  • Members
    • Member ID: 114
  • 1,141 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Buffalo, NY

Posted 17 May 2013 - 01:16 PM

Some thoughts, although it's been some years since I was in uniform:

 

1. General Officers, generally may prescribe their uniform, which may account for the USMC GO placing his MOH ribbon above the wings. Just a thought. 

2. Regulations dictate the number of rows and the number of ribbons per row as well as the number of each of the rows based on the number of awards. 

3. It also prescribes how and when you may stagger the rack in order to keep from obscuring the ribbons under the lapel.

4.Yes, medal or ribbon but not both, at least for the Army. I believe it is also the same for the MOH as far as regulations, however the recipient may be wearing both for photos for various reasons, but I believe it is incorrect to wear both MOH ribbon and medal when in full dress uniform. As I understand it, it is allowable when in dress such as dress greens (Army), however it always takes precedence and is in the number one position. I may be entirely off the mark with so many changes since I left the service.



#34 emccomas

emccomas
  • Members
    • Member ID: 12,036
  • 2,248 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Madison, AL

Posted 17 May 2013 - 03:28 PM

OK, so I am poking around trying to find a photo of a MOH recipient in uniform and wearing ribbons.

 

I am specifically interested in a recipient that has a total of 5 or 8 (or possibly 11) total ribbons on the left side.

That "should" be (from bottom to top ) 3 ribbons, then 2 (from the 5 total) where the most significant is the MOH.

I would be surprised to see 3 rows of (bottom to top) 3 - 1 -1.

 

Also on a related note, DOD has requested that potential future multiple recipients of the MOH be awarded medals for each action, and not the V device on the MOH for a second award.

Somebody re-thought that idea.  Good!  Hope the legislation passes.


Edited by emccomas, 17 May 2013 - 03:29 PM.


#35 Captainofthe7th

Captainofthe7th
  • Members
    • Member ID: 3,190
  • 3,602 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Connecticut

Posted 17 May 2013 - 04:12 PM

Some from our own forums, mostly 4starchris: http://www.usmilitar...s/page__st__120

 

 

post-387-1168824804.jpg

 

post-387-1168828038.jpg

 

post-387-1171074410.jpg

 

Rob



#36 firefighter

firefighter
  • Members
    • Member ID: 105,435
  • 5,939 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:CNY

Posted 17 May 2013 - 04:26 PM

Those are some nice pics and ribbon racks.I like the MC with the two MOH ribbons and whats the ribbon below the MOH on the Army generals uniform? Look's almost like a MC Brevet medal? But I think it's the Philippine Medal of Valor.Just goes to show a general & MOH recipient can wear his medals any way he wants, as it should be.



#37 emccomas

emccomas
  • Members
    • Member ID: 12,036
  • 2,248 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Madison, AL

Posted 17 May 2013 - 04:40 PM

That last one has to be Smedley Butler's uniform.  What a character, and an awesome Marine.  Semper Fi.



#38 Jack's Son

Jack's Son

    BANNED

  • Banned
    • Member ID: 8,213
  • 19,660 posts
  • Gender:Not Telling

Posted 17 May 2013 - 06:11 PM

Those are some nice pics and ribbon racks.I like the MC with the two MOH ribbons and whats the ribbon below the MOH on the Army generals uniform? Look's almost like a MC Brevet medal? But I think it's the Philippine Medal of Valor.Just goes to show a general & MOH recipient can wear his medals any way he wants, as it should be.

 

 

 

I guess it would take one recipient, to correct another. :)



#39 MMA10mm

MMA10mm
  • Members
    • Member ID: 83,948
  • 180 posts

Posted 18 May 2013 - 09:53 PM

Any chance you fine fellas could name the couple recipients that are not named in the posts?

Sorry I didn't name most of them, but as you can see, there is a fair degree of heat being thrown out that in some way I must be criticisizing these honorable heroes. I didn't want to fan those flames by attaching names, as some here would presume I was calling those awardees out (which I am NOT).

If you wish to see more of these men and their stories, I recommend looking them up on this list and then googling for more details: http://en.wikipedia....onor_recipients

Edited by MMA10mm, 18 May 2013 - 10:09 PM.


#40 MMA10mm

MMA10mm
  • Members
    • Member ID: 83,948
  • 180 posts

Posted 18 May 2013 - 10:16 PM

OK, so I am poking around trying to find a photo of a MOH recipient in uniform and wearing ribbons.
 
I am specifically interested in a recipient that has a total of 5 or 8 (or possibly 11) total ribbons on the left side.
That "should" be (from bottom to top ) 3 ribbons, then 2 (from the 5 total) where the most significant is the MOH.
I would be surprised to see 3 rows of (bottom to top) 3 - 1 -1.
 
Also on a related note, DOD has requested that potential future multiple recipients of the MOH be awarded medals for each action, and not the V device on the MOH for a second award.
Somebody re-thought that idea.  Good!  Hope the legislation passes.


I agree. In all the looking I've done, the unusual arrangement is always above a row of 2. (Of course, if there is a row of 3 below the MOH ribbon, it would be centered and in its own row anyway, right?) So, if there is a regulation about this, "MOH in its own row," a rack with 3 ribbons underneath could be following either the special reg., or it could be following the conventional system. BUT, if we found a 3-1-1, or the equivalent, THAT would tell us there IS a special regulation. Alas, I've not found that arrangement...

#41 MMA10mm

MMA10mm
  • Members
    • Member ID: 83,948
  • 180 posts

Posted 18 May 2013 - 10:19 PM

Not to hijack this thread, but I've wondered why sometimes you see 4 ribbons across, vs. 3 ribbons?
 
Here's a photo of William Donovan.  I've seen some pics of him with 4 ribbons across...


First, thanks for the photo of an Army recipient following the "MOH in its own row" system.

As far as the 4-ribbon row, I know the USMC regs state it should be done if rows of 3 cause the rack to go too high on the shoulder. As far as I know, USAF & USCG specifically prohibit rows of 4.

#42 MMA10mm

MMA10mm
  • Members
    • Member ID: 83,948
  • 180 posts

Posted 18 May 2013 - 10:28 PM

I don't think this conversation is looking to crucify anyone just because we are having a discussion about the different ways it was worn and if it was actually a regulation. No one has said they did anything wrong and all has been supported by pictures.


Thank you. I must say I'm a little shocked and dismayed that even some normally scholarly people around here who are usually very reliable researchers have joined the bandwagon. It's almost like our own little version of the Stolen Valor Act police: hypersensitive about anything to do with MOH and hypersensitive to defend against criticism which doesn't even exist?!?

I'm about to the point of throwing up my hands, saying "OK, you guys win, I presume one guy started wearing his ribbon outside regulations and the rest just followed suit 'cause they thought it looked cool." i really don't believe that, as everything I've heard about these men is that they're humble, unassuming soldiers and sailors -- you know, the type that follow regs...

#43 MMA10mm

MMA10mm
  • Members
    • Member ID: 83,948
  • 180 posts

Posted 18 May 2013 - 10:33 PM

Thanks for those pics, Rob. I'm a huge fan of Gen. Butler. In a book I have about him, there is a picture of him in service dress with Sam Browne and ribbons, and that ribbon rack matches the one shown in your post of his whites. Top row is longer and both MOH ribbons side-by-side in first position, not in their own row.

He retired in 1932, as I recall, and all the pics I can find of MOH ribbons being worn in their own row are post-WWII.

#44 emccomas

emccomas
  • Members
    • Member ID: 12,036
  • 2,248 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Madison, AL

Posted 19 May 2013 - 03:32 PM

OK, so here is an Air Force general's uniform that was recently on Ebay.

 

Without going into the "who is going to correct him", or "generals can wear their uniforms however they please" issues...

 

I am thinking that, according to the uniform regulations, the Air Force Cross ribbon should be the left most (in the photo) ribbon in the top row (immediately above the Legion of Merit ribbon.

Attached Images

  • hill af uniform.jpg


#45 Argonauts2

Argonauts2
  • Members
    • Member ID: 9,107
  • 269 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 19 May 2013 - 06:06 PM

The red ribbon with stars is not a Philippine Constabulary /Philippine Medal of Valor ribbon, pre-1947. The ribbon color is similar to the Marine brevet medal, but the star arrangement is different. For the Philippine Medal of valor it is two white stars over three white stars.

#46 Goober

Goober
  • Members
    • Member ID: 6,546
  • 43 posts

Posted 20 May 2013 - 01:45 AM

OK, so here is an Air Force general's uniform that was recently on Ebay.

 

Without going into the "who is going to correct him", or "generals can wear their uniforms however they please" issues...

 

I am thinking that, according to the uniform regulations, the Air Force Cross ribbon should be the left most (in the photo) ribbon in the top row (immediately above the Legion of Merit ribbon.

Actually you would be incorrect.  First of all it is a Distinguished Service Cross ribbon.  According to AFI 36-2903 which is the Air Force's current dress and appearance standards this is a perfectly acceptable variation when a lapel comes in contact with a portion of the ribbon.



#47 emccomas

emccomas
  • Members
    • Member ID: 12,036
  • 2,248 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Madison, AL

Posted 20 May 2013 - 03:27 AM

Actually you would be incorrect.  First of all it is a Distinguished Service Cross ribbon.  According to AFI 36-2903 which is the Air Force's current dress and appearance standards this is a perfectly acceptable variation when a lapel comes in contact with a portion of the ribbon.

That is good information, thanks for the clarification.

 

I have been looking at AF Cross ribbons so much lately that it seems like I see one every time I look at an AF uniform.  My bad on the DSC ribbon.

 

It seems as though the Army and Air Force (which seem to be fairly close to each other) vs. the Navy / USMC  have different acceptable "styles" when it comes to the wearing of ribbons.  Does that sound right?


Edited by emccomas, 20 May 2013 - 03:37 AM.


#48 Goober

Goober
  • Members
    • Member ID: 6,546
  • 43 posts

Posted 20 May 2013 - 05:39 AM

Usually there's a pretty good standard of conformity as of late.  You will see minor variations with difference classes of uniform but as a hole they're pretty much similar. 



#49 SEABEEBRIAN

SEABEEBRIAN
  • Members
    • Member ID: 4,110
  • 1,091 posts
  • Gender:Not Telling

Posted 20 May 2013 - 05:59 PM

I agree with the "who is going to correct them" statement

 

 

Here are a couple current ones, same number of rows-different position. I think it just came down to the recipient's choice.

attachicon.gif106788226JU023_Celebrities_091340-300x3002.jpgattachicon.gifArmy+Chief+Staff+Gen+Odierno+Holds+Ceremony+aky6fdDVU0wl.jpg

It is kind of hard to see but does Petry have his MOH ribbon on upside down?



#50 firefighter

firefighter
  • Members
    • Member ID: 105,435
  • 5,939 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:CNY

Posted 20 May 2013 - 06:02 PM

post-387-1168824804.jpgIt is upside down, good catch.The stars are suppose to be like an 'M'.I still wouldn't correct him, even if he was a private.




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users


In Memory of Co-Founder GREG MILLS ROBINSON, a.k.a. "Marine-KaBar"
(February 17, 1949 - March 5, 2011)