War Trophy Certificates

[Bob Hudson]

I was speaking today with a Marine who reminded me that war trophies are a thing of the past. I think he said they became illegal in 2005.

 

Quite different from the days when there was an established bureaucratic procedure for bringing them home.

 

I found this one in a stack of paper the other day: it's a Marine Corps war trophy certificate for a Japanese rifle and sword brought home in 1952, by a Marine who went overseas for the Korean War!

 

Let's see some of your documents.

 

[TRR]

War trophies are still allowed, but now it is the PC term "souvenirs." Gone are the days of bringing back firearms or munitions though. If you had a cool commander, there was work arounds for shrapnel, bullets, ect...just not guns. Same deal with having to have paperwork to bring them back.

 

Cool document though.

[Brig]

War trophies are not illegal, just under much stricter regulations

[Jack's Son]

This is good news! For some reason I was under the impression that the practice was no longer allowed. I recall during the VN war, a friend who was a MC SNIPER WAS NOT ALLOWED TO BRING BACK PICTURES OF HIS KILLS. Really p*ssed him off.

[TRR]

A lot depended on the commander. We had a 1SG during my first tour that loved trophies. So in turn, we had a company war chest that was filled with everyones stuff. The commander taped a memo to the top and customs didn't even open it.

[78CARg]

Nice one Bob! Thanks for sharing. Here is my grandfathers. However from the list of Items, it appears he took these not as trophies, but to survive the harsh conditions on Attu.

 

[Bob Hudson]

Well, I found a Marine Corp Times article that explains why, after 2005, war trophies - mostly enemy military items - as we know them from WWI and WWII and even Vietnam, for all practical purposes became illegal:

 

General Order No. 1B, issued by U.S. Central Command on March 13, 2006, spells out the rules for service members in the Middle East. The order prohibits: "Taking or retaining of public or private property of an enemy or former enemy. ... Individual war souvenirs may only be acquired if specifically authorized by USCENTCOM. Absent such express authorization, no weapon, munitions or military article of equipment obtained or acquired by any means other than official issue may be retained for personal use or shipped out of the USCENTCOM [area of operations] for personal retention."

Commanders, "when based on military necessity," can seize private or public property, and "unit retention of historical artifacts must be specifically approved by USCENTCOM," the order states. It also permits tourist souvenirs that can be legally brought into the U.S. but bans "enemy war material" even if it can be legally bought.

 

General Order No. 1B — which also famously bans alcohol and pornography — applies to uniformed members in the combat theater, as well as most contingency contractor personnel serving with, accompanying or employed by the armed forces.

 

The order supersedes the previous version, General Order No. 1A, issued in 2000 and revised in 2001 and 2003, which held a more relaxed standard for many items.

[TRR]

Bob,

 

That is accurate and I remember reading the order. I should have a copy somewhere as well as the banned list put out by USCENTCOM. It leaves a lot of gray area as to what is considered "enemy war material" and what the unit commander's can approve. For example, the bayonets I brought back were all from captured weapons, except one was received on a trade with an Iraqi Sergeant. They were allowed in 2008 when I returned, but you could not bring back a license plate because that was Iraq property. Our unit submitted paperwork to higher and was able to bring back a slew of wepaons that ended up hung thru out the Brigade HQs, but no individual retention was allowed. Times have definately changed.

[badash5946]

The initial Korean War capture paper that you show is a really uncommon item. There are just not that many documented Korean War souvenirs, they are very few and far between. I think this is only the third or fourth I've seen in many years of collecting, and all are from the First MarDiv.

[Bob Hudson]

Times have definately changed.

 

Yes - for those who haven't read it, check out the story of the chaplain who got handcuffed when an over-zealous JAG officer tried to pin a war trophies vilolation on him: http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/167272-el-alamein-british-helmet-59-years-later/

[SARGE]

Bob,

 

Most of these WWII period war trophies also had a property tag attached to them as well. Here is an example of one such tag that was attached to a Mauser Model 1914 pistol that was brought back by a US Army Air Corps Lieutenant. It is shown along with a letter from the veteran explaining how he picked up the pistol and got it back home. In this instance, he brought back two pistols but was only allowed to take/keep one. He talked his buddy into taking this one home from the ETO for him and then returning it to him when they got stateside. Very clever these soldier collectors!

 

I have seen a variety of these property hang tags. This one is simply a plain brown paper tag with the personal information written on one side. I have another that was actually a WWI period toe tag for dead bodies that was recycled for use as a WWII war trophy property hang tag with information written on the blank back.

 

 

 

 

[dave peifer]

when there's a will there's a way..........dave

[SARGE]

when there's a will there's a way..........dave

 

Right you are Dave. Never underestimate the ingenuity of the US GI!

[TRR]

"Never tell people how to do things. Tell them what to do and they will surprise you with their ingenuity." General Patton

 

I am sure that was directed at the power of a group of Privates.

[suwanneetrader]

Our country spends Millions $'s whipping a country or dictator. Then more Millions rebuilding them just so they can charge us ever higher prices for their oil and now the GI can not bring home a helmet or knife. What ever happened to "The Spoils of War Go TO The Victor"? Seems things get more screwed up all the time. Just like the guy that blewup the little boy and others at the Boston race, reporters and other "Bleeding hearts" are complaining that no one read him his rights. People like him have no rights with the filmed proof he did it, just have a public firing squad, immediately. Richard

[USCapturephotos]

The "bring back" documents from WW2 have become collectible in their own right. I have a bunch. Sadly I have been told that treacherous dealers love finding ones where a type of pistol is marked without the serial number so they buy the certificate, marry it with a pistol and voila, price just went up as you now have an idd bring back firearm.

Paul

[badash5946]

The "bring back" documents from WW2 have become collectible in their own right. I have a bunch. Sadly I have been told that treacherous dealers love finding ones where a type of pistol is marked without the serial number so they buy the certificate, marry it with a pistol and voila, price just went up as you now have an idd bring back firearm.

Paul

Unfortunately Paul, there are crooks throughout the hobby, and as time goes on their efforts have become more and more difficult to ferret out. Early VN era "forgeries" were relatively crude copies of capture papers and would not pass muster today, tho I did get burned on them once or twice back then. I do know of one dealer who seems to have had a stash of blank capture papers, as weapons that went into his hands unpapered later turned up with capture papers attached...Just a shame, for the almighty buck these guys would pervert themselves.

[MasonK]

I have only one bring back with accompanying paperwork; a M30 German Gas Mask w/Cannister. Unfortunately, I purchased this at an antique co-op. The dealer wasn't present so was unable to ask how it was acquired.

 

Could very well be that the paperwork and item were married together at a later date, but I guess no way of knowing for sure. In any case, photo of the paperwork accompanied by the enlistment info on the soldier (only details I could find on him).

 

[MasonK]

And a photo of the gas mask and cannister...

 

[78CARg]

Wow, that's really cool Eric! Thanks for sharing.

[USCapturephotos]

Unfortunately Paul, there are crooks throughout the hobby, and as time goes on their efforts have become more and more difficult to ferret out. Early VN era "forgeries" were relatively crude copies of capture papers and would not pass muster today, tho I did get burned on them once or twice back then. I do know of one dealer who seems to have had a stash of blank capture papers, as weapons that went into his hands unpapered later turned up with capture papers attached...Just a shame, for the almighty buck these guys would pervert themselves.

Yes Badash. That is the truth. I got burned this year with some bad "bring back" VC pieces from a dealer who I thought was trustworthy. It leaves a bad taste in your mouth to be sure. Knowledge is everything but it is tough to be comfortable in a lot of areas. Hey Masonk. I live near you in Lansdale and will join your FB page.

Paul

[MasonK]

Wow, that's really cool Eric! Thanks for sharing.

 

Thank you, sir!

[MasonK]

Yes Badash. That is the truth. I got burned this year with some bad "bring back" VC pieces from a dealer who I thought was trustworthy. It leaves a bad taste in your mouth to be sure. Knowledge is everything but it is tough to be comfortable in a lot of areas. Hey Masonk. I live near you in Lansdale and will join your FB page.

Paul

 

Thanks, Paul! The page is still in its infancy (i.e., not many others posting), but hopefully one day it will take off.

 

Sorry to hear you got taken on the VC items. Was it a local dealer?

[USCapturephotos]

 

Thanks, Paul! The page is still in its infancy (i.e., not many others posting), but hopefully one day it will take off.

 

Sorry to hear you got taken on the VC items. Was it a local dealer?

Hey Eric. No. If it was I would surely let you know. He was somebody from the Midwest I had been talking to for quite sometime. I thought there was a return policy but he wouldn't take the stuff back nor send me my money back. Anyway, live and learn I guess. Hey by the way, the eagle turned up at a card shop near the Oxford Valley Mall of all places..not too far from you.

[MasonK]

Wow, just took a look at the railway eagle. What an awesome find in itself; the information added to it by the vet is the icing on the cake!

 

There's a couple card shops not far from me. I'll have to ad them to my list of regular places to check!