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Philippine Constabulary Officer Swords


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#26 SARGE

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Posted 02 January 2010 - 08:07 AM

Thanks Sarge

I love this Philippine Army sword and have never seen one of these, though I have many period photographs of Philippine Army officers sporting them and I assumed --- wrongly -- that they are simply US Army 1902 Officers swords. It certainly makes a lot of sense. My guess is that they were provided an option of an engraved blade, just as US Army Officers were for a minor up-charge.

What would be equally interesting and the rarest of the rare would be if a Philippine Island National Guard (PING) Model 1902 Officers sword ever turned-up since they only existed from 1917 to 1921.

As to my other sword, there are no engravings on the blade and no maker marks. Lt. de Rubio used the sword in the field, as it's pictured mounted on his saddle. I also have a photo of Lt. Gramm with his sword mounted the same way on the saddle, so they were not just dress use, though I am not too sure how much good they would do in a bolo rush. As a side note, Fencing instruction was a required class in the early years of the PC academy, pre-1910. When I get a minute, I will scan a photo of the swords mounted on the saddle and post them for reference.

I don't believe the sword was made by the Germans or French. As I have collected German swords for many years, and don't recall ever running across a military German, French, Austrian or Russian sword without a "fuller", which is the case with this sword. The blade reminds me of the blades found on Faternal Swords that are more rounded, though this is a wider and heavier blade that could easily be for combat and not just show. I have however seen Spanish blades that don't have fullers, though they are not my specialty so I don't have too much basis to go on one way or another. Interesting sword none the less and I always like named pieces as the fun is in researching who the owner was and what he did.

All the best. Joe


Joe,

Thanks for showing your occupation Constabulary belt buckle. I have never seen the cap device before and both buckles seem to be slightly different stampings as one could expect with Philippine made insignia. My belt is cloth and leather in the Japanese style but I bet there is a sword belt with this buckle out there somewhere too.

This is the only Philippine Commonwealth Army sword I have ever seen and I have not heard of a PING sword but now there is something else to be on the lookout for. My PA sword is named to "C.S.Antenor" but I have not found any records on him and his name is common like Smith or Jones in the US it seems. There is no US or eagle in the etch but here is a view of the Philippines Commonwealth seal in the etching of the PA sword.

Philippine_Commonwealth_seal.JPG

I would love to see your period photos of your sword in wear.

#27 Blair217

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Posted 02 January 2010 - 09:02 AM

Bullets and Bolos is available as a new reprint in paperback from http://www.hailerpublishing.com

#28 Argonauts2

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Posted 02 January 2010 - 09:14 AM

Bullets and Bolos is available as a new reprint in paperback from http://www.hailerpublishing.com


Thanks Blair

It's a great read. The other Jungle Patrol is even better! All the best. Joe

#29 Argonauts2

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Posted 03 January 2010 - 07:53 AM

Gents,

Several Philippine Constabulary belts were shown on another thread and received some interest. I thought I would post a thread on the Philippine Constabulary Officer Sword and see if anyone has another to show.

These swords are very scarce variatons of the standard US Model 1902 Army Officer Sabre. They have some distinctive differences from the standard sword however and were only worn by the Philippine Constabulary. Here is an example of the PC sword made by Baron of Solingen.



The hilt is identical to the Standard M1902 except it has a different backstrap with a ball pommel and a thumb rest near the guard. The PC sword also has wire wrapped grips instead of the black grips of the standard M1902. Wood and leather did not fare well in the tropical climate so wire grips seem to make more sense than painted wood.



For comparison, here is a photo of the standard M1902 hilt showing the backstrap and grips.


Here is a photo of a Philippine Army Officer in 1938 with the model 1902 sword. Joe

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  • Constab_Officer_seated.jpg


#30 Argonauts2

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Posted 03 January 2010 - 07:59 AM

Here is another image of two Constabulary Officers using the 1902 sword. Note the PC Garrison belts. This photo was taken in 1921. What is interesting is that the wire gripped "Baron" made Constabulary sword was being replaced post WWI with the Model 1902 in the photos I have in my collection. Were these swords only available pre-WWI? Joe

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  • Constab_Officers.jpg


#31 Argonauts2

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Posted 03 January 2010 - 08:02 AM

Here is another image of two Constabulary Officers using the 1902 sword. Note the PC Garrison belts. This photo was taken in 1921. What is interesting is that the wire gripped "Baron" made Constabulary sword was being replaced post WWI with the Model 1902 in the photos I have in my collection. Were these swords only available pre-WWI? Joe



Here is a nice early photograph of a Philippine Constabulary Officer who graduated from the Academy in 1908. Note the garrison belt, the high collar with PC collar device and the cap with the PC device with eagle above. The sword being carried is the "baron" made PC sword with wire grip. Joe

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  • Constab.jpg


#32 Argonauts2

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Posted 03 January 2010 - 08:08 AM

Here is a nice early photograph of a Philippine Constabulary Officer who graduated from the Academy in 1908. Note the garrison belt, the high collar with PC collar device and the cap with the PC device with eagle above. The sword being carried is the "baron" made PC sword with wire grip. Joe



One more photo, this time Philippine Army Officers taken in 1937. Note they are all sporting the model 1902 officers sword. Joe

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  • Constab_Officers_3.jpg


#33 SARGE

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Posted 03 January 2010 - 09:40 AM

Here is another image of two Constabulary Officers using the 1902 sword. Note the PC Garrison belts. This photo was taken in 1921. What is interesting is that the wire gripped "Baron" made Constabulary sword was being replaced post WWI with the Model 1902 in the photos I have in my collection. Were these swords only available pre-WWI? Joe


Great pictures Joe! Very clear pix and a scarce subject indeed. We tend to overlook the history of our colonial period and these pictures are great examples of US rule in the Philippines. It should also be remembered that these PA and PC troops became Federalized as the US Armed Forces Far East in 1941 and were/are considered US soldiers and veterans.

The wire grip Baron swords remain a mystery. Baron seems to have been an unregistered trade name for one of the larger Solingen manufacturers. Angolia shows a WWII period Baron sword in "Swords of Germany" that looks a lot like a Hörster pattern but the backstrap is slightly different. My Philippine Army sword is unmarked but has a "proved" marking with an "H" in the center so that is circumstantial evidence that backs up Angolia's observation. So, as Baron was still making swords as late as 1941 both of these swords might have been worn at the same time. Perhaps variations that were available to the officer at different costs as you suggest with the blade etch. I would like to nail down who actually made the Baron swords (and KS98 Extra-Seitengewehre).

Philippine_Army_proof.JPG

Edited by SARGE, 03 January 2010 - 09:45 AM.


#34 Argonauts2

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Posted 03 January 2010 - 02:24 PM

Great pictures Joe! Very clear pix and a scarce subject indeed. We tend to overlook the history of our colonial period and these pictures are great examples of US rule in the Philippines. It should also be remembered that these PA and PC troops became Federalized as the US Armed Forces Far East in 1941 and were/are considered US soldiers and veterans.

The wire grip Baron swords remain a mystery. Baron seems to have been an unregistered trade name for one of the larger Solingen manufacturers. Angolia shows a WWII period Baron sword in "Swords of Germany" that looks a lot like a Hörster pattern but the backstrap is slightly different. My Philippine Army sword is unmarked but has a "proved" marking with an "H" in the center so that is circumstantial evidence that backs up Angolia's observation. So, as Baron was still making swords as late as 1941 both of these swords might have been worn at the same time. Perhaps variations that were available to the officer at different costs as you suggest with the blade etch. I would like to nail down who actually made the Baron swords (and KS98 Extra-Seitengewehre).

Philippine_Army_proof.JPG


Sarge
Good point and worth running to ground. I checked Angolia and will follow this lead regarding Horster as the maker and Baron as a possible distributor. I am very familiar with Angolia's sword book as I provided all the WKC plates in the back for the Imperial swords along with many of the imperial photographs. I checked for Baron in Richard Bezdek's book on German Swords along Klaus Lubbe's German sidearma and Bayonets 1740-1945; Tom Johnson's Weapons of Imperial Germany and Walters, The Sword and Bayonet of makers of Imperial Germany 1871-1918 and found no reference to "Baron" so we will see what I turn-up. All the best. Joe

#35 Argonauts2

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Posted 03 January 2010 - 02:33 PM

Great pictures Joe! Very clear pix and a scarce subject indeed. We tend to overlook the history of our colonial period and these pictures are great examples of US rule in the Philippines. It should also be remembered that these PA and PC troops became Federalized as the US Armed Forces Far East in 1941 and were/are considered US soldiers and veterans.

The wire grip Baron swords remain a mystery. Baron seems to have been an unregistered trade name for one of the larger Solingen manufacturers. Angolia shows a WWII period Baron sword in "Swords of Germany" that looks a lot like a Hörster pattern but the backstrap is slightly different. My Philippine Army sword is unmarked but has a "proved" marking with an "H" in the center so that is circumstantial evidence that backs up Angolia's observation. So, as Baron was still making swords as late as 1941 both of these swords might have been worn at the same time. Perhaps variations that were available to the officer at different costs as you suggest with the blade etch. I would like to nail down who actually made the Baron swords (and KS98 Extra-Seitengewehre).

Philippine_Army_proof.JPG



Sarge

You point is well taken with regard to US and Fillipino history. They are tightly intertwined by the mid-20th Century. The Fillipino casualties on the death march from Bataan were staggering. It is important to remember that it was both American and Filipinos' who held the line at Bataan and Corregidor in the 20th Century's version of the Alamo allowing us to build up forces in the Pacific and tieing seasoned Japanese soldiers up who could have been deployed elsewhere, paying the price in blood. This era is of interest as my great uncle was an officer assigned to the 45th Infanrty PS before the fall of Bataan. All the best. Joe

#36 noworky

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Posted 03 January 2010 - 06:01 PM

These are some great posts, fantastic swords and photos. Thanks to all!

#37 Sgt. Boghots

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Posted 03 January 2010 - 08:44 PM

Joe,

Thanks for launching another great thread. And to all others that contributed !

Best regards,

Paul

#38 Sgt. Boghots

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Posted 03 January 2010 - 09:07 PM

Joe & Sarge,

On the subject of Philippine Scouts, officers, swords, etc., here's a link to New York Times article about foreign born officers holding commissions in the U.S. Army following WW1.

It lists them by branch, rank, name, and place of birth. Read on through, and you'll see the section for Philippine Scouts.

My particular interest in this list was then Captain Per Ramee, of the PS. Swedish born, but raised in North Dakota & Minnesota, he began service with the Minnesota National Guard as a private. He was a fine marksman with the M1903, and made many a trip to Sea Girt & Camp Perry for National Championship matches.

He was a close personal friend and Minnesota National Guard shooting team mate of a guy who's 1921 National Match Springfield '03 I have in my collection. When I obtained my rifle from the family of its original owner, there was also a ton of shooting paraphrenalia and range equipment with it. Amongst the items was one of Per Ramee's shooting jackets, made from an officers tan cotton blouse. In it is the original manufacturer's tag from "Ah Cheong, Tailor, Ft. Wm. Mckinley, Philippines".

Ramee had a long and distinguished career in the U.S. Army. By 1941 he was a Colonel commanding the 134th Infantry Regiment.

Sorry I got a bit sidetracked there from the subject of swords in this thread, but I thought that the below linked article may be of direct interest to your ongoing subject. It would be pretty neat to turn up one of those Philippine mfg'd swords with one of the names on the list:

http://query.nytimes...FB3668382609EDE

Best regards,

Paul Walker
Klamath Falls, Oregon

#39 Sgt. Boghots

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Posted 03 January 2010 - 09:37 PM

I believe that Per Ramee served with the Philippine Scouts before, during and after WW1 - though the exact dates I have not endeavored to confirm.

Here's a picture before he received his commissioning, while still a sergeant with the Minnesota National Guard:

Ramee is seated in front on the left side

Ramee___Lundeen_1909_merged.jpg

#40 Sgt. Boghots

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Posted 03 January 2010 - 09:39 PM

And another of Ramee's Philippine mfg'd. officer's blouse, converted to a shooting jacket, circa 1915 - '20:

Ramee_Shooting_Jacket___Forum_Size.jpg


Best regards,

Paul

#41 SARGE

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Posted 04 January 2010 - 07:35 AM

Paul,

What a great grouping from your marksman! I have never seen a tailored shooting jacket like this one but it is really neat.

I have a postwar Philippine Constabulary book that lists some of the officers that transitioned from or to the PC. Some were Filipino and some were transfers from the US Army as well as the PA. There were quite a few Filipino officers who served in US units and an exchange was fairly common it seems. Interesting that your officer was Swedish born and served in both US and PS units.

BTW, there seems to have been a state of friction between the PA and the PC and they frankly did not mix very well. This was also a problem with the Philippine Scouts as each unit did not particularly like this habit of exchanging officers and thought their units were the best. Imagine that?

#42 Sgt. Boghots

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Posted 05 January 2010 - 08:45 PM

Paul,

What a great grouping from your marksman! I have never seen a tailored shooting jacket like this one but it is really neat.

I have a postwar Philippine Constabulary book that lists some of the officers that transitioned from or to the PC. Some were Filipino and some were transfers from the US Army as well as the PA. There were quite a few Filipino officers who served in US units and an exchange was fairly common it seems. Interesting that your officer was Swedish born and served in both US and PS units.

BTW, there seems to have been a state of friction between the PA and the PC and they frankly did not mix very well. This was also a problem with the Philippine Scouts as each unit did not particularly like this habit of exchanging officers and thought their units were the best. Imagine that?


Thanks for your comments on the grouping, Sarge. -

As to friction between units; there's always a fine line between friction and unit pride. - The more things change, the more they stay the same it seems . . . ;)

Best regards,
Paul

#43 ron norman

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Posted 12 January 2010 - 05:08 PM

I have 2 of the PC swords and they are NOT the same as shown. Not BARON marked and a different blade etching. I will add pictures in the next day or so.

Ron Norman

#44 SARGE

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Posted 12 January 2010 - 06:23 PM

I have 2 of the PC swords and they are NOT the same as shown. Not BARON marked and a different blade etching. I will add pictures in the next day or so.

Ron Norman


Thanks for the information Ron. I would love to see pictures of your swords.

#45 SARGE

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Posted 13 January 2010 - 01:19 PM

Sarge
Good point and worth running to ground. I checked Angolia and will follow this lead regarding Horster as the maker and Baron as a possible distributor. I am very familiar with Angolia's sword book as I provided all the WKC plates in the back for the Imperial swords along with many of the imperial photographs. I checked for Baron in Richard Bezdek's book on German Swords along Klaus Lubbe's German sidearma and Bayonets 1740-1945; Tom Johnson's Weapons of Imperial Germany and Walters, The Sword and Bayonet of makers of Imperial Germany 1871-1918 and found no reference to "Baron" so we will see what I turn-up. All the best. Joe


Joe,

I just remembered that in my quest to nail down who made "Baron" swords I found that one of the obscure Weyersberg's used the same vase of flowers logo. The Weyersberg logo is not identical to the Baron logo but it is certainly a variation.

Baron logo-

PC_sword_BARON_marking.JPG

Gottfried Weyersberg logo-

PC_Baron_Gottfried_Weyersberg.jpg

This Gottfried Weyersberg logo is found on a 1933 SA dagger. Of course according to Bezdek the "Gottfried Weyersberg" name was a retail trade name (itself a logo) used from 1846-1996. So, it would not necessarily mean that Weyersberg, or WKC in this instance, actually made either the sword or the dagger. Confusing isn't it?

#46 Argonauts2

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Posted 17 January 2010 - 04:05 AM

I have 2 of the PC swords and they are NOT the same as shown. Not BARON marked and a different blade etching. I will add pictures in the next day or so.

Ron Norman



Ron
Thanks for your note. Look forward to seeing your photos and learning about your swords. Joe Suarez

#47 ron norman

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Posted 20 January 2010 - 04:38 PM

I have 2 of the PC swords and they are NOT the same as shown. Not BARON marked and a different blade etching. I will add pictures in the next day or so.

Ron Norman


This proof mark on both of my PC swords appears to be stamped in Platinum and is a CROWN over the letter H

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  • PCswdproofmark.jpg

Edited by ron norman, 20 January 2010 - 04:48 PM.


#48 SARGE

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Posted 22 January 2010 - 02:33 PM

Ron,

I find it very interesting that your PC sword has a crown/H marking in the proof slug while my PA sword has a Proved/H marking. Most of these proof slugs are brass or gold or simply etched or stamped into the steel blade.

#49 ron norman

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Posted 22 January 2010 - 04:28 PM

I have 2 of the swords. Both have the same proof mark. One is stamped off center and Until I aquired the second one it was difficult to tell. The engraving (etching) on the blade is a somewhat different pattern and appears to be deeper. I suggest Platinum because it does not tarnish. I have compared my swords etching against the ones you showed on this forum and there are differences. Both the scabbard nand the blades have similar PC markings on them.
Ron

Edited by ron norman, 22 January 2010 - 04:40 PM.


#50 SARGE

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Posted 28 May 2014 - 07:35 AM

Gentlemen,

 

As suggested, I am going to pin this thread to the top of the edged weapon forum for future reference.  I am trying to find a suitable thread on variations of the "standard" US Model 1902 Army Officer Saber to pin but I am having difficulties.  Since we no longer allow outside photo links those are now broken.  This is the problem with outside links as they often fail, the photos get taken down, or the hosts change.  

 

At any rate... does anyone have any further information on these Philippine Constabulary M1902 Sabers to add before we pin this thread?  




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