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May 1944 Vol 4 #4 Disney Comics, 80th Ftr Sqd image.................


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#1 Johnny Signor

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Posted 15 March 2013 - 09:57 PM

Anyone have the image for this one they could post , it is shown in this issue back inside page , also the 9th PRS emblem, dragon with camera over japanese flag , did Hank Porter do this emblem( 9th) ????????????????

Thanks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Johnny

#2 38Driver

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 07:46 PM

Yale Saffro, a Crew Chief with the 80th FS did the original 80th design with Donald Duck pouring a bucket of urine on the Japanese Rising Sun. He also did the well known "Headhunter" that is still used today.

Saffro had been an artist with Disney before the war.

The original design wasn't used as they figured it wouldn't get approved by the War Department.

A decent view of the original patch on the 80th Website. I know I've seen a photo of Marion Kirby, an original 80th Headhunter, with his A2 with the original patch on it, but I can't remember where.

http://80fsheadhunte...original-patch/

The history of the better known Headhunters patch

http://80fsheadhunte...-patch-history/

#3 Johnny Signor

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 08:45 PM

Yeah , I knew about these patches , but the one I'm trying to find out about as to who/when/where is another 80th FS emblem, it was shown in the May 1944 Vol 4 # 4 issue of Disney Comics by dell , inside top left of back page, I am trying to find out who drew it , It was Disney , but they had several artist doing the emblems, Hank Porter was the main one , but I think there were a few more , also the background as to why it wasn't used,etc ............................
Johnny

#4 38Driver

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 09:19 PM

80th FS or 80th FG? I have all kinds of 80th FS stuff and I've never seen mentioned another patch. But sometimes the "Twin Tailed Dragons" of the 80th FG get mixed into the discussion as they both had 38s.

#5 Johnny Signor

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 08:14 AM

It's the 80th Fighter "Squadron" and they were with the 8th Fighter "Group" , you can go to this site and see the emblem I am talking about ,
outducks.org
once you get the site scroll down to the "United States" titled comic book click that , then scroll to "Walt Disney Comics & Stories , click , then go to 1-207 of page , then click #44 of that page , the cover has Donald Duck wearing a cat costume sitting on a fence with two cats and shoes being hurled at them , the emblem is on the last page at top left .
Johnny

#6 R. Watkins

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 10:59 AM

This is the image page Johnny is referring too.
The 80thFtrSqdn can be seen (barely) at the top left column.
Bob

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  • us_wdc_044_19_001.jpg


#7 Johnny Signor

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 04:37 PM

yeah , there ya go Bob , much thanks for posting it !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Johnny

#8 38Driver

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 07:26 PM

Remind me to never question Johnny when it comes to squadron patches! :)

Learn something new every day and I thought I had the 80th FS down.

I wonder if Disney proposed it, but it never got anywhere due to Saffro's efforts?

80th FS pilot, Norb Ruff's book mentions that Saffro was given the job to do the Headhunter one once Porky Cragg the CO gave them the "Headhunters" name so they had that from Mid 43 until now. With the comic being from 44 it would seem to point to it being a proposed design? I imagine the first done by Saffro with Donald Duck dumping urine on the rising sun wouldn't have looked real good in a comic book either:)

Thanks for the continuing education gents!

Edited by 38Driver, 17 March 2013 - 07:31 PM.


#9 Johnny Signor

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 08:23 PM

Yeah , it's a VERY fascinating hobby and history to do !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I love every minute of it and I too am always learnign something new about the emblems , that's what makes it really worthwhile, just when you "think" you've gotten it all nailed down, "POW" something new comes across the net, etc and you start anew with them !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Glad to help spread the info anytime ,and yes this was someones design via Disney , and I agree that it was most likely a "proposed" design and like you say "Saffro" may have been the artist on it, maybe someone else from Disney "suggested" it/drew it , who knows, but I am hoping to find that out in time !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Johnny

#10 R. Watkins

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 06:20 AM

Johnny,
This is the best image of this design I have been able to come up with so far.

It most definitely came from the Disney Studios and was from the drawing
board of Hank Porter.

Exactly why this design was ultimately replaced by the later Head Hunter
image is unknown.

Bob

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  • 80thFtrSqdn(Prelim.jpg

Edited by R. Watkins, 18 March 2013 - 06:21 AM.


#11 Johnny Signor

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 05:54 PM

Well I would think that image would be good enough to re draw and color in properly seeing as the image on the comics site is clear enough to see the colors .........

Yeah , I agree, I lean more towards the design being done by Porter ........................................................
Johnny

#12 38Driver

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 06:21 PM

It's simple. The 80th guys had one of their own crew chiefs, Yale Saffro., who also was a Disney artist prewar, do the art. As they were the guys getting shot at, and wearing the badge, there is no doubt they'd go with one of their own. I also understand it was done as a bit of respect to the local aborigines who had helped downed pilots return to Allied lines, and the Porter design doesn't represent that.

Also remember the Saffro design was done in mid 43 and was on some of the 38s right away such as Ken Ladd's "Null Secundus".

No disagreement here that the Porter art is good stuff though :)

#13 disneydave

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 06:49 PM

Remind me to never question Johnny when it comes to squadron patches! :)

Learn something new every day and I thought I had the 80th FS down.

I wonder if Disney proposed it, but it never got anywhere due to Saffro's efforts?

80th FS pilot, Norb Ruff's book mentions that Saffro was given the job to do the Headhunter one once Porky Cragg the CO gave them the "Headhunters" name so they had that from Mid 43 until now. With the comic being from 44 it would seem to point to it being a proposed design? I imagine the first done by Saffro with Donald Duck dumping urine on the rising sun wouldn't have looked real good in a comic book either:)

Thanks for the continuing education gents!



Disney never proposed any combat designs - they were all requested by someone serving with the unit in question...sometimes the request was sent in by the lowest rank and other times the highest of ranks sent in a request...but the request always originated with the unit.

#14 disneydave

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 06:54 PM

Well I would think that image would be good enough to re draw and color in properly seeing as the image on the comics site is clear enough to see the colors .........

Yeah , I agree, I lean more towards the design being done by Porter ........................................................
Johnny


The color shown on the pencil drawings, and the colors reproduced in the comics and on the Hearts Postamps don't always represent the final colors used to paint the finished art.

Most people don't know this fact but Porter was colorblind, so the pencil colors he used on the drawings weren't always used on the final art. One of my many Disney research projects that I am currently working on is Porter's biography. I have around 1,000 examples of his art in my database.

Pretty much most of the photographs taken of the final art that the Disney Archives has record of was taken using black and white filmstock. Only a very, very few designs were photographed in color. I know this for a fact because I have had the priviledge of looking at all of the insignia books at the Archives back in the 1980s when the facility was still open to outside researchers.

#15 disneydave

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 06:59 PM

It's simple. The 80th guys had one of their own crew chiefs, Yale Saffro., who also was a Disney artist prewar, do the art. As they were the guys getting shot at, and wearing the badge, there is no doubt they'd go with one of their own. I also understand it was done as a bit of respect to the local aborigines who had helped downed pilots return to Allied lines, and the Porter design doesn't represent that.

Also remember the Saffro design was done in mid 43 and was on some of the 38s right away such as Ken Ladd's "Null Secundus".

No disagreement here that the Porter art is good stuff though :)



This is definitely a piece of Porter art. The pencil drawing was sold a couple of years ago by Porter's second wife's niece. The three Porter children hardly got any of their father's art when he passed away. When they approached the second wife after his death, they were allegedly treated rudely on the doorstep. The second wife retrieved a very small sampling of their father's art and told them not to bother her again.

Porter designed at least 80% or more of the combat art to come out of the Studio during the war. Other Disney artists included Van Kaufman, Roy Williams, Ed Parks, George Goepper, and Bill Justice. Porter created most of the Disney insignia art from about 1942 on.

I own aorund two-dozen pieces of his combat art including two finished, painted designs, and the rest are pencils.

#16 Johnny Signor

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 08:52 PM

Most of the color images I have seen either the comic series or the stamps pretty much are same same color wise , but as you said he was color blind and his first "drafts" and the "final" approved and or used emblems very well could have been different .

But I would tend to follow those of the stamps/comics seeing as they printed them that way , I don't see why they would have reason to vary them if they were the finished image ..........................................

The rough 80th image and the one in the comic issue posted are both very close color wise , so it at least appears this one followed Hanks colors ........................
Just my opinion...........................
Johnny

#17 disneydave

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 11:30 PM

As I mentioned, most of the insignia photographic reference material on file at the Disney Studio was taken with black and white filmstock so the final colors for the majority of insignia designs is unknown at this time. The only way to be sure is to reference the final painting.

And while the colors in the comic and the drawing may match, I have seen over 600 Porter pencil drawings and many dozens of pieces of final art - some of the drawings were done in colored pencil, some were painted using watercolor, some of the drawings were only partially colored, and some of the drawings were executed in black lead pencil only with no color. It's been my experience that the majority of Porter's drawings had no color. While many did, most did not.

The other problem too is that not all of the pencil drawing colors transitioned over to the final art. Case in point: the final art and the pencil drawing. There are differences in the shades used and some portions of the finished art is executed in colors different than what were used in the drawing:

blog 1234.jpg


blog 12345.jpg


And finally, Porter was not the only person painting the final designs. Unless the design involved a recognizable Disney character who had set colors for specific pieces of clothing that character may have worn, color choice was often left to the person painting the final piece of art. I know this as a fact because I have interviewed one of the artists who assisted Porter with the painting of the final designs.

So you can use any colors you want when reproducing insignia, just keep in mind the final drawing, when it did have color, was not necessarily the color model used to paint the final art.

#18 Johnny Signor

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 01:09 PM

yeah , I agree , the colors would be "interpritive" for sure , but seeing as thiers very few "real" patches out there to compare to , the Disney Comics" series would be a fairly good refference in my opinion to go from , at least on those printed in the issues, i would venture a bet they were from the "finished" art for at least those designs.

#19 R. Watkins

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 02:00 PM

For those interested in the process, the attached image is what Disney was referring too
regarding Disney colors. Unless a specific character was assigned a specific color break
(color guidelines), color selection for any given emblem was more or less a matter of individual
interpretation, especially with those field applications where paint supplies were limited.

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  • HiawathaClrBrk.jpg


#20 Johnny Signor

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 09:22 PM

Hey Bob, Very cool on the Little Hiawatha image and the color notes !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Johnny

#21 Johnny Signor

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 09:24 PM

I did notice that he has some "variations " to colors in the Disney Dons Dogtags book , so there again is another aspect of freedom of color choice.....................

#22 Morlok

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 03:12 PM

I was digging through some of my grandfathers things a few weeks ago & found a few original pages of the Disney War Badges...pretty neat stuff!

#23 Johnny Signor

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 03:31 PM

Can you please possibly post them here for us to see??????????????????
Much thanks !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Johnny


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