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The Rare USMC WW2 T handle Shovel - what to look for


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#26 ArchangelDM

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 03:03 PM

Hi Steve
Thanks for the opinion , but I know this cover to be original and authentic. The person I bought the shovel and cover from was a collector for the last 30 years and I do trust him as a seller.
Here is a link to some other the same as mine , same colour and same buckles ,

http://www.ebay.com/...=item2c6a07bbb1


http://www.ebay.com/...=item5aeedad726

Regards

D


#27 ArchangelDM

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 03:06 PM

Archangel,

Interesting topic regarding the shovel. I have considered looking for one of these, but never found proof it was a genuine USMC issue item.



-Steve



The shovel is featured in an advanced USMC collecting book, I will find it and show the page on the shovel

Regards
D

#28 ArchangelDM

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 03:26 PM

Then again I'm no expert on shovel covers , it was bought a few years back and I do trust the seller. But I'm learning everyday

#29 Steve1987

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 03:51 PM

Hi Steve
Thanks for the opinion , but I know this cover to be original and authentic. The person I bought the shovel and cover from was a collector for the last 30 years and I do trust him as a seller.
Here is a link to some other the same as mine , same colour and same buckles ,

http://www.ebay.com/...=item2c6a07bbb1


http://www.ebay.com/...=item5aeedad726

Regards

D


Dean,

These are well known fakes. Not even close to an orginal DQP shovel cover!

The seller autordco is Vulcan Gun Refinishing, they are well known for selling bad USMC items on e-bay. Same with the other seller, I think they're the same person/company.

Here's a thread about some of their other bad USMC shovel covers, pure fantasy items:

http://www.usmilitar...__+usmc +shovel

I hope he didn't charge top dollar for this shovel cover. I would want my money back if he claimed to be a USMC gear expert.

-Steve

Edited by Steve1987, 06 March 2013 - 03:52 PM.


#30 ArchangelDM

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 04:03 PM

Dean,

These are well known fakes. Not even close to an orginal DQP shovel cover!

The seller autordco is Vulcan Gun Refinishing, they are well known for selling bad USMC items on e-bay. Same with the other seller, I think they're the same person/company.

Here's a thread about some of their other bad USMC shovel covers, pure fantasy items:


Busmc+%2Bshovel"]http://www.usmilitar...__+usmc +shovel[/url]

I hope he didn't charge top dollar for this shovel cover. I would want my money back if he claimed to be a USMC gear expert.

-Steve


Thanks for the heads up Steve :-) the cover was a freebie. And it was a few years ago

Regards
D



#31 Steve1987

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 04:12 PM

Thanks for the heads up Steve :-) the cover was a freebie. And it was a few years ago

Regards
D


No problem - I think a lot of collectors have fallen for this one on e-bay.

-Stve

#32 Ronnie

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 06:10 PM

Hi Steve
Thanks for the opinion , but I know this cover to be original and authentic. The person I bought the shovel and cover from was a collector for the last 30 years and I do trust him as a seller.
Here is a link to some other the same as mine , same colour and same buckles ,

http://www.ebay.com/itm/WW2-U-S-M-C-M-1910-Entrenching-Tool-Carrier-Shovel-Cover-Cutters-Tag-Marines-/190757452721?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2c6a07bbb1


http://www.ebay.com/itm/100-Original-US-WWII-USMC-Marine-Corps-E-Tool-Cover-Unissued-W-Cutter-Tag-/390554375974?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5aeedad726

Regards

D


These "USMC" covers are as fake as a USMC 3 dollar bill!
Ronnie

#33 uplandmod

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 07:26 PM

You mean my USMC 3 doller bill is a fake?!
: (

#34 etienne

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 11:18 PM

Dean,

These are well known fakes. Not even close to an orginal DQP shovel cover!

The seller autordco is Vulcan Gun Refinishing, they are well known for selling bad USMC items on e-bay. Same with the other seller, I think they're the same person/company.

Here's a thread about some of their other bad USMC shovel covers, pure fantasy items:

http://www.usmilitar...__+usmc +shovel

I hope he didn't charge top dollar for this shovel cover. I would want my money back if he claimed to be a USMC gear expert.

-Steve


Regardless of the seller, who's known for listing some questionable USMC items, I'm not sure those specific covers are fakes.

They are indeed different from the early war DQP covers, by the color, the buckle ... but remember that the late war DQP haversacks do have the same color and buckle pattern ;)

My best guess is that those covers are likely to be leftovers of the last batches of the DQP. If I was to fake USMC covers, I wouldn't add manufacturer tags but a nice USMC or DQP stamp :rolleyes:

Furthermore, I think those covers have already been discussed several times on USMF and not declared as fakes.

#35 ArchangelDM

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 01:29 AM

Regardless of the seller, who's known for listing some questionable USMC items, I'm not sure those specific covers are fakes.

They are indeed different from the early war DQP covers, by the color, the buckle ... but remember that the late war DQP haversacks do have the same color and buckle pattern ;)

My best guess is that those covers are likely to be leftovers of the last batches of the DQP. If I was to fake USMC covers, I wouldn't add manufacturer tags but a nice USMC or DQP stamp :rolleyes:

Furthermore, I think those covers have already been discussed several times on USMF and not declared as fakes.


:-) thanks for the input Etienne I bought mine not from ebay and a good few years ago

#36 ArchangelDM

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 01:31 AM

No problem - I think a lot of collectors have fallen for this one on e-bay.

-Stve


Thanks Steve
Mine didn't come from ebay , was acquired 3 years ago from a private sale. Also mine was a gift with the usmc shovel I purchased.

#37 Corpsmancollector

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 04:33 AM

Regardless of the seller, who's known for listing some questionable USMC items, I'm not sure those specific covers are fakes.

They are indeed different from the early war DQP covers, by the color, the buckle ... but remember that the late war DQP haversacks do have the same color and buckle pattern ;)

My best guess is that those covers are likely to be leftovers of the last batches of the DQP. If I was to fake USMC covers, I wouldn't add manufacturer tags but a nice USMC or DQP stamp :rolleyes:

Furthermore, I think those covers have already been discussed several times on USMF and not declared as fakes.


I agree with etienne regarding these covers. Having acquired mine over 10 years ago, this is the first I have heard of them being outright 'fake' covers. We have discussed these in the past here on the Forum and as far as I am aware, they are legitimate period manufactured USMC pieces of web gear.

Why would you 'fake' a USMC shovel cover and stamp it with a US on the front? I sure wouldn't go to the trouble of adding cutter tags either. In my opinion the 'US' stamps were likely added by an enterprising dealer to make them appear legitimate US 'Army' issue covers. They were probably late war USMC stock that sat in a depot and never saw the light of day.

These covers are also featured in numerous USMC publications and articles. Not that you should believe everything you read, but just sayin'...

If these are determined 'fake' covers then fair enough, but I'll be interested to see how this topic develops and hear the opinions of other USMC collectors.

Will

#38 Steve1987

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 05:49 AM

Regardless of the seller, who's known for listing some questionable USMC items, I'm not sure those specific covers are fakes.

They are indeed different from the early war DQP covers, by the color, the buckle ... but remember that the late war DQP haversacks do have the same color and buckle pattern ;)

My best guess is that those covers are likely to be leftovers of the last batches of the DQP. If I was to fake USMC covers, I wouldn't add manufacturer tags but a nice USMC or DQP stamp :rolleyes:

Furthermore, I think those covers have already been discussed several times on USMF and not declared as fakes.


Hmm.... So this could be surplus from the same era of the late war packs?

Does anyone have a period photo, or some sort of proof?

Here are some other fakes from same seller:

http://www.ebay.com/...=item2c6c4bbc31

http://www.ebay.com/...=item2c6c4b97c2

The cutter tags aren't enough to convince me. And if the U.S. stamp was added by a dealer later than do any examples exist without the the stamp?

By late in the war didn't the USMC already have a plentiful supply G.I. issued shovel covers anyway? Why would the DQP need to keep making them?

-Steve

#39 etienne

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 07:34 AM

Does anyone have a period photo, or some sort of proof?


I haven't ... but the only difference between a standard army cover and this pattern are the hook and the US stamp, difficult to find a phote, that's the weak side of my guess :blink:

By late in the war didn't the USMC already have a plentiful supply G.I. issued shovel covers anyway? Why would the DQP need to keep making them?



We can only wonder why the USMC ordered such covers ... perhaps because the M1910 pattern was discontinued and the Corps had huge stocks of M1910 shovel without covers.

It's the same with wirecutters ... The Army and marine Corps pattern are almost identical, but the DQP didn't stop to make them.

#40 ArchangelDM

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 07:36 AM

Too be fair Steve ,
why would anybody fake a cover In that colour ? If they where going to fake them they would of used the lighter khaki colour and put a depot stamp inside ? The quality is there and the wire hanger is not a cheap repro , I have handled quite a bit of USMC items and have some very nice depot made packs and canteen covers, and this to me feels and looks legit to me.
The item was not bought from that seller , it was a private purchase 3 years ago.
Like I said this is just my opinion on it , I know we all strive for photographic evidence and written proof but sometimes some items where just not documented or photographed.
If these are late war USMC depot made then there is a very good chance they never saw daylight, due to there being an abundance of G.I ones. You have to remember that the marines thought they were going to have to invade Japan , after taking the islands they were gearing up to invade Japan. So it seems totally plausible that they made USMC items right up to the surrender of Japan after the nuclear bombs. No one knew when the surrender would happen so in hind site I'm guessing they continued to make field equipment.
I also guessing that the ones we see with the cutters tags where never used to due to the surrender , and there is no photos that we have seen due to them being sat In the marine depot, unissued and not needed.
I see no reason to fake these as they just aren't documented so there is no real gain, fakes are only produced when there is a high demand for them and they prove popular.
Just my 2 pence

Edited by ArchangelDM, 07 March 2013 - 07:38 AM.


#41 ArchangelDM

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 07:40 AM

Just to add to all members thank you for all your opinions and taking the time out to add your knowledge to this thread

#42 ArchangelDM

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 08:12 AM

Finally found the pics and the advanced usmc collecting book :) both covers are here , including the darker non marked one that i have

I guess that answers the fake or not fake question

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#43 ArchangelDM

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 08:13 AM

pics

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#44 ArchangelDM

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 08:14 AM

This shows the contrasts in colours with my one and the much lighter khaki one, notice mine also has the dark green trip with the exact clasp

#45 ArchangelDM

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 08:15 AM

This shows the contrasts in colours with my one and the much lighter khaki one, notice mine also has the dark green trip with the exact clasp

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#46 ArchangelDM

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 08:18 AM

pics

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#47 Steve1987

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 08:25 AM

Hi D,

It looks like I may have to eat my words on this one.

I never thought these covers had a chance, but I can see the argument they may be late war USMC items, such as the packs we more often see.

I'm not sure how much appeal these covers have to collectors, seeing as they are late war and maybe not ever even used, but I suppose they are an interesting item.

Thanks for the interesting follow-up, and sorry for de-railing the original topic.
-Steve

#48 ArchangelDM

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 08:48 AM

Hi Steve
No worries mate, I think the rarity and due to the fact they actually never saw daylight makes it more collectible. You rarely if ever see these in collections , being a variant I think adds to its collectibility.
It goes to show that having good books and literature are the backbone of any collection, wish I had of spent the money In my earlier years on books rather than buying on instinct would have saved me a shed load of Money.

Thanks D

Edited by ArchangelDM, 07 March 2013 - 08:49 AM.


#49 etienne

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 08:55 AM

I'm not sure how much appeal these covers have to collectors, seeing as they are late war and maybe not ever even used, but I suppose they are an interesting item.



There's 3 types of covers that USMC collectors may be interested in : early Depot made pattern, quite rare and difficult to find, UNIS marked standard Army covers, highly seeked but not so often found and the one we speak about today :excl:

So this one is not the most interesting USMC item but a fairly good authentic hole filler, or a specific pattern for 782 gear's collectors. I'd say every serious USMC collector should have one, but I prefer UNIS marked covers B)

#50 ArchangelDM

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 09:12 AM

[/size]

There's 3 types of covers that USMC collectors may be interested in : early Depot made pattern, quite rare and difficult to find, UNIS marked standard Army covers, highly seeked but not so often found and the one we speak about today :excl:

So this one is not the most interesting USMC item but a fairly good authentic hole filler, or a specific pattern for 782 gear's collectors. I'd say every serious USMC collector should have one, but I prefer UNIS marked covers B)


And the rare depot made camo shovel covers :-) man I want one of those


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