M3/M4 conversions

[Okie96]

Hello. I've seen some threads on the forum that start with lets see your, whatever it happens to be and I was curious and decided to start this one. I don't know if there's been a thread about these yet. I remembered that Frank Trzaska said on his website that the very first M4 bayonets were converted from M3 trench knives. This conversion was also listed on page 104 of the book United States Military Knives collectors guide by Michael W., Gary D. and Silvey Boyd. I've only seen one of these and it was listed on ebay some time back and it looked like the blade had been refinished. I thought that it would be interesting for people to see any examples of this conversion that might be in your collections so if you got one lets see it!

[SKIPH]

Okie96- Sounds like a good subject. Been out of the net a couple of days so I didn't see the thread. I don't have photo capability. Mine is a blade marked Camillus, late guard (1950s), with a black rubber handle. The blade had been slightly reground, then refinished. I've only handled a couple of others, and can't recall seeing any on ebay. They seem to be fairly rare. SKIP

[damcon3]

Would there be any way to tell if a guard marked m3 had been converted?

[SKIPH]

damcon33- I don't believe you could tell if a guard marked was converted for certain. There's just no distinguishing marks. Maybe handle or tang length. Just don't know for certain. SKIP

[Okie96]

Hey SKIPH, sorry to hear you can't post pictures of yours. As to damcon3's question, as far as I know, any M3/M4 conversion should have 8 grooves as the M3 had 8 grooves and the M4 only had 6.

[SKIPH]

Okie96-They replaced the leather handles with 6 groove rubber handles. Remember that the leather handles deteriorated rather fast, with use and exposure. I have only seen a picture of a converted M3 to M4 w/ leather handle, and I believe it was an early factory prototype. Another note, M3s had both 8, and 6 groove handles. The later guard marked went to 6 groove, with Case, Imperial, Kinfolks, PAL, and Utica. Some Case M3s can be seen w/ 5-9 grooves, and even w/ a 20 groove special handle (rare). SKIP

[bayonetman]

A few quick notes and some opinions.

 

1. I doubt that many M3 blade marked M4 bayonets were actually manufactured by the contractors during WW2. By the time the M4 was adopted, the guard marked M3 had been in production for some time. Some few blade marked M3 blades might have been assembled as M4s using some older blades on hand, but they would have been very uncommon.

 

2. By the 1950s there was interest in converting the M3s on hand to M4s due to a possibly shortage created by the Korean War. Up until that time, there were plenty of M4s on hand from WW2 production since most of that production did not actually get into combat zones except as replacements for the M3. Camillus did a test run on 250 in early 1953 that were supplied to them by Ordnance, some of which probably had blade markings. The test showed that the cost of the conversion was essentially equal to making a new bayonet, and the project was cancelled.

 

3. The test blueprints and procedures were sent to the Japan Logistical Command since labor costs there were much lower. Somewhat over 58,000 M3s were converted in Japan to M4s beginning in April 1953 at the rate of about 5,000 per month. Undoubtedly many of these conversions used blade marked M3s, and these bayonets went into the US Ordnance system so they are correctly US M4 bayonets. They are pretty scarce today, possibly because many of them were issued in Korea and left there. Some apparently used the original M3 8 groove leather grips, but in many cases it appears that the grips were replaced with new 6 groove grips.

 

4. In my OPINION, the rubber handled M4s are not an official US conversion but were done in another country (probably somewhere in SE Asia). I have found no official US Ordnance mention of such a conversion, and almost all that I have seen have been imported in the last 20 years. It is possible that it was done experimentally on a very small scale by Ordnance, but not in the quantities that I have seen. Many of the ones seen today have unmarked guards and late style dot marked latch plates.

 

5. By late 1953 Ordnance had contracted with Camillus to make new leather handled M4 bayonets and it is unlikely that any other efforts at conversion of the M3s were done after the Japan Logistical versions were completed in early 1954. In 1954 the first production of the new plastic handled version of the M4 was begun with the order for almost 300,000 from Turner Manufacturing (which by the way, used blades supplied by Camillus).

 

I stand ready to be corrected on any of this if someone has Ordnance documentation, and would welcome seeing any such paperwork.

[SKIPH]

Gary- Thanks for the added info. I'd sure like to see a few of the leather handled converted M3s. Get some measurements. Always figured they made them with rubber handles. How you feeling these days? Good to here from you. SKIP

[SKIPH]

Gary- Did all the converted M3s get the updated 50s guard? I'd love to see a leather handled M4 w/ that guard, other than the original 1953 Camillus M4 I have. That's interesting. Again, Thanks. SKIP

[SKIPH]

Okie96= I found my lost pics of my Camillus M3/M4 had them transferred to this computer. Now, how do I post a pic. I knew how under the old site. but have no clue now. Help ! Anyone. THX SKIP

[SKIPH]

This is my Camillus M3/M4 bayonet. SKIP

[Okie96]

Nice! Thanks for posting it. This thread has taught me a lot I didn't know about this conversion.

[SKIPH]

I agree w/ Okie96. This thread was informative. As Gary had mentioned they converted M3s and maintained the leather handles. Never knew that. Something I do recall was that in the late 60s, a surplus company called P&S Sales out of Oklahoma was selling surplus rubber handled M4s. Can't recall any info on M3 blades,could have had them. Were they US surplus, or someone elses surplus. Now I'm curious where they got them. Carbines were still being used in Vietnam, and Korea, and a lot of other counties. Wish I still had all those sales catalogues.

[damcon3]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/WWII-WW2-US-M3-FIGHTING-KNIFE-CASE-BLADE-MKD-/321079317824?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4ac1d19540

Is this even possible from an arsenal?

[SKIPH]

Wow! That's a really interesting piece. Blade and guard marked. Case blade, and Camillus guard, w/ plastic grips. Never seen anything like it. Doubt that was done at either Case or Camillus factory. Great piece. SKIP

[Okie96]

There not to common, but there are normal M3s that can be found with blade and gaurd markings.

[SKIPH]

The dual marked are few and far between. A few of the guys have them on the thread, but I have yet to see one in person. Plus this M3/M4 conversion has parts from different companies. Had to have been a rebuild. Doesn't look like a recent made hoax, but who knows. SKIP

[Okie96]

The dual marked M3s are rare but if you keep an eye out, you'll see one come up about once everymonth or two, maybe three.

[bobcat87]

I have a Utica blade marked m3/m4 conversion with a 6 groove leather grip. It has the wider 1950's crossguard. I can not post pics yet until I have 3 posts though.

[bobcat87]

It also has maroon spacers. I have read on some threads where some believe that there were not any spacers used on Utica M4 bayonets. I think the Japanese manufactured M3/M4 conversions for the US government did use these spacers.

[bobcat87]

This could possibly explain why an M4 bayonet pops up every once in a while with an M3 blade and spacers. The Japanese used spacers in 1953. If it was not blade marked, you would automatically assume it to be a fantasy piece or fake. I think I read they made 53,000.

 

I know I am new to posting, but I have read all these threads for years. I never have posted until now though.

[bobcat87]

Now I will try to post some pics if it will let me.

[bobcat87]

It worked!!! Here is a pic of the crossguard too...

[SKIPH]

NICE ONE! Thanks for showing! SKIP

[bobcat87]

I have followed your posts and topics for a while SKIPH. It is nice to have your approval. You and the rest of the regulars around here are filled with info that runs a WW2 knife nut such as myself crazy...I give you guys some credit for my addiction. This one may go on the auction block to buy a nice 1918 Mark 1 and scabbard. I have wanted a really nice one for years. That is if I don't stumble upon a Chevron M9... Or a blade dated Case and M6 scabbard... OH *$!#... Look at what this place does to me!