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A $49,000 recruiting banner....... Oh really...?

Started by teufelhunde.ret , Dec 30 2012 07:06 AM

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#1 teufelhunde.ret

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Posted 30 December 2012 - 07:06 AM

Sure it scarce... but not with my money. The asking price is over the top... Sellers text is pasted below the image

http://cgi.ebay.com/...ME:B:SS:US:1123

$(KGrHqZHJFMFDVPsTHU3BQ3mgWo06g~~60_57.jpg

ORIGINAL/PRICELESS/VINTAGE 1887-1915 US MARINE CORPS USMC RECRUITING BANNER

This is for the big league true US Marine Corps, pre-WW1,Spanish War or advertisement collector. This is an original and authentic recruiting banner that was used between 1887-1915. Most questions will be answered below, please read all.

Basic information:
Some of you may remember from about 3 years ago I listed this for a mere $150.00 (with a reserve). During this time I was contacted by 2 knowledgeable pre-WW1/Spanish War enthusiast who gave me valuable information and I immediately canceled the auction. I thought it was some kind of homemade banner that was made to commemorate something. Wrong! That information started me on a long quest to gain more information. A few long conversations with experts and a few museum visits later I was lead to the MCRD Museum. So I took it to the US Marine Corps Museum MCRD San Diego CA and to my surprise, this banner is an original and authentic. Of course they could not tell me what it is worth (museum rules) however, to their and my surprise it is differently an authentic recruiting banner. The museum had never actually seen one of these in person, only in pictures. They said it is priceless. I truly believe this piece should belong in a museum however I did not want to donate it for free. When I found out what it was, I felt truly lucky and proud to have a piece of history in my possession.

Quick Q&A of obvious questions:
-Why the writing (CAR4SELL ITEM) over the pictures? To put it simple...scammer and fraud prevention.
-Why the high cost or what's a reasonable value?No one can give an exact value due to none being on the private market. It may be high but no one can say what's the low cost.
-Will I take offers?Yes due to not having an exact value(No low-ball Pawn Star offers)
-How many are known in existence?Unknown, however I am told two are in the Quantico Marine museum in storage.
-Is this a reproduction,copy, fantasy or fake? No
-Is this banner real,authentic and original? Yes
-Can it be authenticated?Yes
-Has it been appraised with exact estimate?No (See below)
-Has it been looked at by professional/museum?Yes (See below)
-Am I willing to get a second authentication or opinion from an reputable expert of your choice?Yes(See below)
-How many of these are still around?I am told the Marine Corps museum in Quantico has 2 in storage and not on display and there are no private collectors that has one.
-Why aren't there any private collector's with one?You have to think back to the late 1800's early 1900's, collecting items were not a hobby and this was not particularly a center piece of anything. Just another office item of the time.
-Do I have an exact date of production,tags,hallmark?No (Banner of this type was used/issued 1887-1915, also notice the two banners on top of eagle which helps date it.
-Why is it blue and not scarlet and gold?Transition to scarlet and gold was established 1914. These were "phased" out with the last ones used in 1915.

Use of item:
These were hung outside of recruiting stations and used indoors by hanging or draping them(see last pic). Every recruiting station had these. You have to remember there were not as many recruiting stations as we have today, electricity wasn't wide spread and even the Model-T wasn't invented. This was a tool of advertisement. I have 4 other pictures showing this type of banner in use (pictures showing banner are not originals and are not included with banner).

Provenance:
To put it simple, it was passed down to me years ago along with some other vintage Marine Corps items. No one knew what it was, so it was put in a bag enclosed in plastic storage bin for years. After it was determined what it was, it was promptly removed and cared for. No other history information available.

Cost/Price:
Due to this being a rare piece I was told there is no real way to put an exact price on it. Due to there is nothing to compare it too an exact value can not be attained, but I was told it's worth a hellava lot to the right collector,private museum or with proper advertisement at a traditional auction. Value range was given to be between 50K and up. You have to be a true collector to appreciate this piece. If not sold it will be returned to the safe deposit box, so please no Pawn Star low-ball offers I am not in any particular "hurt locker" to sell this piece. I will gladly hear what offers are out there and then determine to sell, place back in storage or try a traditional auction.

Condition:
Due to not knowing what it was, it wasn't particularly taken care of, it just wasn't moved or exposed to light. I was a little skeptical before I took it to the museum because the condition and colors are in excellent condition for being over 100 years old. The blue color is still vibrate with no fading at all and the white parts has some yellowing stains but all is intact. It has some slight moth holes(not many) and one large rip on the top. This is a double sided banner with both sides the same and in the same condition. Banner measures approx. 59in wide and 88in long.

Authentication:
This was authenticated by the MCRD Marine Corps museum. No authentication paperwork was given (museum rules) but can easily be taken to any reputable authenticator/appraiser/expert. If bought, I will gladly accompany you to any reputable authenticator/expert or if you are in the San Diego area, go to the MCRD Marine Corps museum or if in the Quantico VA area, to the Marine Corps museum there. If going to other than a Marine Corps museum, the authenticator/expert must be reputable.

Shipping:
It is preferred that this item not be shipped via any mail service but hand delivered due to value. I would not feel comfortable packing and mailing a priceless piece as this through the mail system. We can meet at any reputable authenticator/museum/expert to complete the transaction.
If it is absolutely required/preferred to ship via mail, shipping charge will be $30 insured and certified. Please keep in mind no returns and in person transaction is preferred.

Pay arrangements:
-In person-1/2 of total cost will be due by cashiers check 7 days after auction ends and other 1/2 due on delivery (in person) by cashiers check. No Paypal due to fees. No additional cost if buyer arranges to meet in San Diego area to complete transaction, otherwise additional may be assessed if I have to travel outside the area for delivery. California residents will have 8.5% tax included.
-Mail Delivery-If item is to be mailed, full payment is due by cashiers check or eCheck before item is shipped. No personal checks or cash (for buyer and seller) security and tracking purposes.

Edited by teufelhunde.ret, 30 December 2012 - 07:08 AM.


#2 Bugme

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Posted 30 December 2012 - 07:31 AM

Only $49,000? I wonder why not $50,000?

#3 jkash23686

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Posted 30 December 2012 - 07:33 AM

Only $49,000? I wonder why not $50,000?


They didn't want to get greedy :)

#4 MWalsh

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Posted 30 December 2012 - 08:06 AM

Yeah, thanks fellow Forum members, for telling the ENTIRE collecting world abut this priceless item. I was up ALL night last night counting pennies and pulling out couch cushions to scrape up the mere $49k, but now everyone knows about it so I am sure the price will be higher, guess I can stop checking underneath the recliner now since everyone will be all over this one.

Ok now... I can spend $2k in airfare, meals, and hotel and rental car fees to get this thing picked up in person, OR I can have it shipped for $30.00. I will have to mull that one over for a while.

I had always thought that the definition of "priceless" was something along the lines of "unable to place a value on". Apparently the dictionary this seller uses defines "priceless" as "about $49,000". Fa be it from me though, to suggest that it simply be started at $99.00 and let the bidding decide just how "priceless" this really is :)

I give an A+ to the seller for time spent on this listing, their tenacity in apparently researching it, and their creativity in writing the listing. I also give a big ole' "virtual hug" to museum curators everywhere who have to try and respond to requests to ID and place a value on grandpa's socks he wore in the war, cousin Tommy's 1995 dated alpha blouse, and.... "Priceless" recruiting banners people wish to sell on eBay. :)

I'm done now.

MW



#5 Brig

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Posted 30 December 2012 - 10:26 AM

priceless? I see he sure tried however

#6 Patriot

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Posted 30 December 2012 - 05:40 PM

At any rate.... is it at least from the time period that he states? It looks much more recent than 1887-1915.

#7 Brig

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Posted 30 December 2012 - 06:28 PM

I'm no expert, but I'd venture to say WWII-Korea

#8 Patriot

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Posted 30 December 2012 - 08:07 PM

Thanks Brig...

Even if the guy's story is true about his museum appraisal, I would be very leery of what a museum curator has to say. They're experience is limited (generally) to those pieces in their collection, and perhaps a few other sources. When you compare that knowledge with a professional dealer in antique militaria (Bruce Hermann, Garry Hendershott, etc), the difference is quite noticeable. I'm not saying that museum curators are inept, but I would rather take it to a reputable dealer that handles thousands of investment grade military antiques each year. If they personally haven't handled one, they probably know where one is.

Then again, the seller just might be full of crap. Who knows?

Edited by Patriot, 30 December 2012 - 08:14 PM.


#9 Alec

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Posted 30 December 2012 - 10:14 PM

The last photo he shows is a recruiting exhibit. Recruiting stations then and now are not setup like that. Might be at a state fair etc. they are all wearing 1912 uniforms and none of them seem to have any ribbons- pre WW1. Lends credence to early 1900 time frame. The banners would have been made at the USMC Depot so I am a little surprised there is not marking at all somewhere.

I'd pay a few hundred for this that is all it is really worth IMHO.

#10 Dirk

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 03:03 PM

D: Finally saw this one....interesting but not in my budget....they are wearing collar EGA 's so I'll date just post WWI...I see ribbons on the Sgt and the man wearing Winter Service Dress on the far right......I also see a "Walking John" poster with Basket Masts (the earlier pre-tripod masted version) just behind the Sgt Marine on the left as well...I've seen that Capt before as well....I think someone out of HQ USMC Public Affairs Office.....and agree with Alec a mobile recruiting station of some sort at the end of the war..

Edited by Dirk, 31 December 2012 - 03:17 PM.


#11 normaninvasion

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 03:27 PM

Cool banner for sure. If the seller was realistic about selling I'm sure they would do very well. Another clue in the photo, as to date, is the 7th Marines banner. Believe they were formed in 1917.

#12 Dirk

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 03:43 PM

Your correct on the 1917 date...they were in Cuba for a few years....but I couldn't be sure if these Marines were in the h7th or just used their flag

#13 Alec

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 04:08 PM

we missed the model 1918 browning on the table also. Late war or postwar.

#14 koinn1

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 09:06 PM

Mwalsh got your pennies yet? To all on this topic, I am the seller of this banner from Ebay. I posted this for the price because of I don't know what it's worth and my goal was to get it talked about on this forum (thanks). The purpose to get it on the forum was to get true thoughts on the banner. Usually people say what they think on forums started by someone else and give awesome insight. Of course I didn't figure on getting $49,500 for this but that is what one person said the value may be, so I figured what the hell. If you noticed I did say I would take offers.
Also this picture is not from a recruiting station but the San Diego County Fair 1915.

So basically what's this thing value? I do know it's the worth $99.00.
Thanks

#15 Alec

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 09:46 PM

Date must be wrong on photo. No egas on EMs in 1915 nor was there aM1918 BAR.

#16 doyler

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 10:02 PM

D: Finally saw this one....interesting but not in my budget....they are wearing collar EGA 's so I'll date just post WWI...I see ribbons on the Sgt and the man wearing Winter Service Dress on the far right......I also see a "Walking John" poster with Basket Masts (the earlier pre-tripod masted version) just behind the Sgt Marine on the left as well...I've seen that Capt before as well....I think someone out of HQ USMC Public Affairs Office.....and agree with Alec a mobile recruiting station of some sort at the end of the war..


What about the guy in Dress Blues in the center.Isnt he wearing a 20s pattern cover opposed to the others wearing a bell crowns?? Just curious.
There use to be a guy at the DesMoines gunshows who used a banner like this for a table cover years ago.havent seen him in years but its still out here some place.

Edited by doyler, 31 December 2012 - 10:04 PM.


#17 MWalsh

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 10:11 PM

Mwalsh got your pennies yet? To all on this topic, I am the seller of this banner from Ebay. I posted this for the price because of I don't know what it's worth and my goal was to get it talked about on this forum (thanks). The purpose to get it on the forum was to get true thoughts on the banner. Usually people say what they think on forums started by someone else and give awesome insight. Of course I didn't figure on getting $49,500 for this but that is what one person said the value may be, so I figured what the hell. If you noticed I did say I would take offers.
Also this picture is not from a recruiting station but the San Diego County Fair 1915.

So basically what's this thing value? I do know it's the worth $99.00.
Thanks


Hah! No, not ready yet, still counting pennies, long way to go to get to the opening price or an offer which would not seem insultingly, potentially tirade causing low, considering what the opening price is :)

I cannot disagree with your approach getting attention, but as often as not the attention seems to be centered far more on the price when they are started high like that, in this case you do have some folks taking a stab at trying to find out a bit more about it, of course good of them to do so if it helps you out in the end I guess.

I guess one sure way to nail down value is just to start it at a more, uh, "typical" price and see where the rarity and desirability drive the price, "hard to find", "rare", and "priceless" all being very subjective terms.

Good luck with it!
MW

Edited by MWalsh, 31 December 2012 - 10:15 PM.


#18 koinn1

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 10:13 PM

Here's another photo of the banner in use. Anyone with more info, more importantly..what's it value? I figure if it's it not worth much now, I hold on to it and keep it in the condition it's in, it will be worth more later. I know it's worth more than $99.00

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#19 doyler

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 10:22 PM

Hah! No, not ready yet, still counting pennies, long way to go to get to the opening price or an offer which would not seem insultingly, potentially tirade causing low, considering what the opening price is :)

I cannot disagree with your approach getting attention, but as often as not the attention seems to be centered far more on the price when they are started high like that, in this case you do have some folks taking a stab at trying to find out a bit more about it, of course good of them to do so if it helps you out in the end I guess.

I guess one sure way to nail down value is just to start it at a more, uh, "typical" price and see where the rarity and desirability drive the price, "hard to find", "rare", and "priceless" all being very subjective terms.

Good luck with it!
MW


M

I got some nickle pop cans for ya and a few pairs of USMC socks if it helps ^_^

#20 MWalsh

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 10:26 PM

On the serious side,I would throw out there a "guestimate" of $400 or $500 or so, somewhere in that neighborhood.

I base that on the fact that large banners and flags, while great complimentary items to collections, are often a hard sell, especially the larger they are. They tend to be hard to display with what is generally pretty limited display place for many collectors, and even folded can take up a fairly significant amount of room. I have personally seen dealers cringe when they see the larger flags and banners turn up, as the larger they are, the harder they seem to be to sell, absent use as a table cover or something. My own experience mirrors that in trying to sell such things from time to time.

The smaller stuff, Japanese personal flags, vehicle ID flag and banners, seem to move easier due to that size issue.

I may be way off due to this one being older and USMC,I will be curious to hear others opinions too.

MW

#21 koinn1

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 10:31 PM

I also have an original USMC recruiting patch on an armband in great shape. Was going to sell that for 20K just kidding (or am I? :D)
If I put the banner and the armband together they have to be worth a couple of pennies.

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#22 Dirk

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 03:45 AM

Doyler: although it looks like a 1922 pattern cap I think it is a bell crown who's outline is hidden by the background. I also think MW's estimate on price (400-500) is a good starting point. Personally I like the banner.....

#23 teufelhunde.ret

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 08:21 AM

Doyler: although it looks like a 1922 pattern cap I think it is a bell crown who's outline is hidden by the background. I also think MW's estimate on price (400-500) is a good starting point. Personally I like the banner.....


Agree, the additional issues here are: 1) cost of authentication. 2) finding someone to create a proper framing so as it can be displayed w/o long-term display damage 3) find wall space for it... it is BIG!

At that point your likely in at 1K, or better. Is it worth that... :huh:

#24 Brig

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 09:12 AM

definite post WWI...actual collar EGAs were not authorized for enlisted troops until 1920

#25 Brig

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 09:18 AM

Koinn1, gotta ask...if you wanted it talked about on the forum, why not just join and post it here? We're always more than happy to discuss something odd/unique such as this!

Recruiting stuff is a very limited market. Especially banners, they're so large and difficult to display. To the right buyer, it might be worth a grand or two or ??. Plenty of collectors would probably be willing to wager 200-500 on auction to have it as it is unique and a conversation piece.


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