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Case V42 - Omaha

Started by siclfde , Dec 15 2012 03:13 PM

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#1 siclfde

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 03:13 PM

There is a "case fighting stiletto" on ebay (170960268524). Obviously the knife is not a V42, but it is being sold with what looks to me to be an Omaha sheath. I compared it to mine, and it is pretty similar except for the piece at the top that holds the metal belt hanger. Mine is sewed ( I think it is an old repair) and the one on eBay appears to be riveted.

Have the sheaths been reproduced??

Anybody have any opinions?

Cliff

#2 SKIPH

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 05:01 PM

Cliff- I believe it is a V42, just rehandled, and no finish. The sheath is what I have seen the USS Omaha V42s in. Maybe Ron Doyler, or one of the other guys who are well versed in V42s will check in. I think it's all legit. SKIP

#3 siclfde

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 06:28 PM

Cliff- I believe it is a V42, just rehandled, and no finish. The sheath is what I have seen the USS Omaha V42s in. Maybe Ron Doyler, or one of the other guys who are well versed in V42s will check in. I think it's all legit. SKIP


Skip,

I thought the thumbprint location looked really strange. It looks like one side is off the ricasso. Mine has thumbprint dead center.

#4 SKIPH

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 06:44 PM

Cliff- I see what you're saying about the thumb print. Where the handle looks modified, maybe that portion of the blade was filed. But a Omaha sheath w/ a V42, I'd say it was probably legit. Who knows? We'll all get it figured out. SKIP

#5 DSchlagan

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 08:54 PM

Of recent years, I have noticed what seems to be be an inordinate number of 'USS Omaha' sheaths. Especially considering that only about 70 of the approx 3.400+, total, (or so), of the V-42s that were actually produced, were diverted/Issued onboard The "USS Omaha".

As the story goes, the shorter "Raider" sheaths were marked "USS Omaha"; then later 'XX'd-out', for reasons of OPSEC.
Some 'survived' the 'XX'd-out sheath'; and I have seen 'some' that appear legitimately marked "USS OMAHA".

I have seen several dozen of these supposed 'Omaha' sheaths, whether 'XX-ed' out, or not, in the last couple of years; which leads me to believe that there are some current individuals with some leather-index-stamps, handy... Way too many, on the market, for ALL to be legit.

My biggest question involves the seemingly inordinate plethora of these that seem to be currently 'out-there/available'.
And add to that the fact that ALL of the USS Omaha V-42s were "ordered to have been scuttled"*; just adds to the wonderment.
*[Yes, I truly doubt that few, if any, were "actually" scuttled...]
Yet, still, there seems to be way-more of these "available", than there "should-be".

****

Furthermore, the ENTIRE hilt assembly is just plain "wrong", on that eBay knife.
NEITHER the guard, grip., or pommel is correct... The indexing "thumb-print" does not look 'quite-right', either, (though very 'well-done/close').
The blade, while also well-done, seems to have some finely-detailed anomalies. [grinds are 'close-to' original, though, I am noticing subtleties, in actuality.]

NOTE THE COMPLETE absence of skull-crusher pommel/nut. Additionally, the "birds-beak" pomml that IS present...??

COME-ON; REALLY?

There are also too many letters "obliterated" from the sheath, than there should be, also.

Caveat emptor: BIGTIME, on this GEM!


Yeah, I s'pose that someone could have "theatre-customized" this knife. Although, and however(?), well done; I sincerely doubt that it is genuine.



Regards,
Don.

Edited by DSchlagan, 15 December 2012 - 09:08 PM.


#6 Jack's Son

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 10:21 PM

I own two very nice examples, one of which has been inspected by an authority. The blade in question is not an original in my opinion, I agree with the other skeptics.

#7 doyler

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 11:13 PM

Appears this is the second time around for this knife sale.Comparing the pics its the same knife.The plate on the scabbard tip has the same crease on the front,same pommel,thumb print andboth are listed from Massachsetts(one auction in Hanson,the other in Pembrooke)

Past auction
http://www.ebay.com/...I-/110974794856

#8 doyler

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 11:40 PM

Current auction





zzcasetp1.jpg



zz1v42.jpg

#9 doyler

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 11:55 PM

First auction


yyv42.jpg


yzv421.jpg

#10 doyler

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 12:03 AM

Another recent auction knife comparing the thumb print.

The V42s were all hand ground.There will be some(slight) variations in the blade grinds and the thumb print.I believe the thumb prints on the originals will have 21 grooves and 20 ridges.The font of the letters in the Case stamping are also very distinctive.



zzv42tp.jpg

Edited by doyler, 16 December 2012 - 12:20 AM.


#11 SKIPH

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 04:02 AM

Cliff- This is why I'm glad some better more experienced eyes are on this knife. All brought up great points. I don't know! It'll get figured out. SKIP

#12 doyler

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 09:23 AM

Also wanted to point out how in post #10 how the grind of the thumb print cuts through the "CA"in the manufactuers mark CASE.First time I have seen this but not unexpected since the prints were ground by hand.I also can see in post #8 of the current knife being discussed there appears to be underlying lines on the grip that look to remain after the handle was buffed or ground smooth by who ever modified it.Also to me the cross guard looks like the original one just reverse bent on the oppisite side..The guards were of a bright steel then painted black.The paint on most originals is either gone or peeling off.Intresting knife but I still would like to see it in hand.Im no expert just looking at a few details.

#13 SKIPH

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 09:37 AM

Ron- I'm still leaning toward modified original. Don's right about all the supposed Omaha V42s, but that scabbard sure looks right to me. Good point on the guard too, it appeared original to me. SKIP

#14 SKIPH

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 09:51 AM

Something else, and I've mentioned this before. You see more V42s for sale than RCC blade-dated M3s. Production numbers V42s, 3600, vs. RCCs 36,000. I realize the V42s have a much greater value and are probably bought for big profit, fast turn-over. But, that's the only expanation I can come up with, other than angry wives when they find out how much a V42 costs. SKIP

#15 siclfde

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 01:47 PM

I'll throw a pic of my sheath up for comparison purposes. I think mine is real, but i haven't had it certified by one of the experts so maybe not.

Couple of differences I see in the stampng. The "USS Omaha" on mine seems to extend farther to the right than the area that is stamped out on the eBay one and the "C-38" seems to be farther to the right than the "C-1" on the eBay one.

The rivets and stiching and the metal plate seem identical. Mine has been modified at the top to either accomodate the hanging wire or is an old repair, whereas the eBay one has what looks to be identical rivets at the top.

IMG_6146.JPG

I agree with DSchlagan, there seems to be a disproportionate number of the Omaha sheaths available, although I can't recall one being offerd w/o the knife.

#16 SKIPH

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 01:54 PM

I think what we need to do is keep up with the scabbard markings. Ie, "E-1""C-38" etc. Just to see if the same ones aren't being sold multiple times. We've all seen what appears to be a lot of USS Omaha V42s. SKIP

#17 siclfde

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 02:08 PM

I just noticed something else on mine as I was putting it away. There are several striations impressed into the leather just above the mouth. These match perfectly the handle of the V42, so at the very worst, the two have been together a long time. Would seem to add to the probabliity of mine being real. Assuming mne is real, the question is do the differences in the stamping mean the other is not or were there differences in the stamp(s) being used. It would seem that if there were only 70 of them and all on one ship, the stamp (font/size/etc) would be similar for all.

#18 DSchlagan

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 04:54 PM

Gentlemen,

I have been reviewing this whole subject, for quite some time, with a fresh[er] outlook (and a little-less tired set of eyes-on).


When I first saw it, I must admit that the notice of 'so many' USS Omaha marked sheaths, of late, certainly evoked a high degree of skepticism and prejudice; right from the outset.
These factors, combined with the 'modified' hilt assembly, [and the kinda mood, that I was already in, before logging-on], ...and, as a result, the knife/scabbard just didn't seem right.

Now, with a more open outlook, [and thankfully in a better mood], I believe that my initial impressions/assessment, of this knife and sheath, were most likely in error.

****

I have seen 'offset' "thumbprints", before, on many legit V-42s; and the actual grinds DO appear as they were machined with original equipment. [Even the "commemorative" V-42s that Case made in the early '90s, do not have the same-exact thumbprint machining.]
USS Omaha V-42 12.jpg
Original V-42 A.jpg

The "bird's-beak" pommel, can also be easily explained, when compared to an 'un-ground' original.
...Just grind-off about 3/4 of the pommel's "flaring", and the entire 'skull-crusher':
USS Omaha V-42 13A.jpg
Original V-42 B.jpg

#19 DSchlagan

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 04:58 PM

The sheath, also, DOES seem correct.
Additionally, the 'XX-d' out portion, uses tooling that appears nearly identical to that performed on another USS OMAHA sheath that I have on file.
I believe that the only "real" difference, in the observed "obscurations" is that the two sheaths vary considerably in condition,

USS Omaha V-42 4.jpg

You will note what I earlier referenced as "even though it seems to have had "too many letters "obliterated" from the sheath, than there should be", when viewing this sheath.
In retrospect, 'somebody' mighta simply have gotten a little 'exuberant' with the process. Although, most all other of the obscured sheaths that I have seen, it is apparent (by the number of letters XX-d out), that it was "USS OMAHA", which was over-struck.
USS OMAHA Sheath.JPG

****


My apologies for earlier 'posting-difficulty-error' ;) ; and the Moral of the story: Do Not post, when in a pissy-mood... :rolleyes:

Kind Regards,
Don.

P.S. That is a fine idea, SKIP, to get a database started on the 'added' numbers involved!

#20 doyler

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 06:03 PM

Don

Thanks for all the posts.Your observations are always of great intrest to me.I enjoyed your first posting as it really made me take a look at the knife in question.I had seen it originally when first offered for sale but was unable to save images to post with a previous V42 topic.I wasnt able to capture the pics and resize them with out the picture getting all skewed/distorted.

I dont know a lot about the Omaha scabbard(s) or who manufactured them but I do agree they all have that typical method of x-ing out the letters.

To address the scabbard posted by siclfde(thanks for posting) it looks 100 percent right to me.As far as the spacing of the letters and numbers I have always thought this was due to them being hand stamped as well by someone on board ship.

#21 siclfde

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 08:03 PM

In my earlier post I alluded to the fact that the thumbprint seemed off center. Couldn't remember where i had read that, but just found it. Its on Frank T's reproduction page (http://www.usmilitar...ves.com/v42.htm).

That site seems to say that the original (in the first example) has a thumbprint that goes all the way across. I read that to mean all originals have a thumbprint that goes all the way across. I guess in reading it closely, it doenst say that ALL originals have a print that goes all the way. Maybe I am confused on that issue.

#22 V42

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 07:06 PM

I'm new to the forum but have been in the military collecting field for over 40 years and I'm not a computer wiz like the rest of you guys and have just been slack in joining and should have joined years ago. So here goes. There is nothing wrong with this Navy V42 and scabbard, although I'm not a fan of the Navy versions. The blade is correct in all respects but whoever had the knife removed all the groves on the leather handle and took off the leather cushion on the crossguard and gave it a recurve (like the 1st pattern F-S knife) and ground off part of the 'skull crusher' pommel for reasons only known to him. He basically ruined the value of the knife but it is all original. At $1500, that is not a bad price but condition wise, I would put it at around $900 - $1000. If anyone needs any information on V42's, I am in the process of finishing up an article on V42's so once I can get my photo's correlated, I am going to have it published so everyone will have all the answers they need on this first class fighting knife and scabbards (only those issued to the FSSF). I have over 30 years of study invested on this knife and know all the in's and out's as I have owned many over the years and still own a few. They are still out there in every imaginable condition. Yes, the thumbprints can be off and different styles, there can be more then 20 or 21 lines in the thumbprint and the quality is excellent on the early V42's and can be bad near the end of the run as some workers did a better job of grinding then others and there was a fourth pattern that had a shorter thumbprint and ricasso but they are harder to find along with the numbered ones. Remember, this was a machine shop making all types of knives and straight razors. Variations do exist as more then one person worked on the blades. There is just not enough and way too much wrong information out there about these knives so that prompted me to write about them. When the article is published, I'll let everyone who is interested know when and where to obtain it. This information will be very, very helpful. I'll be at the SOS show this coming Feb./March and will try to have a copy there for people to look at.


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