AAC Aerial Gunner AMICO Solo Winged Bullet Badge?

[Austin_Militaria]

Anyone have an opinion or seen an ASMIC article written about this badge? Same size as a bullet in a 3" gunner wing.

[Allan H.]

I can't comment on the article, but can tell you that the badge is an early Aerial Gunner's qualification pin. The first aerial gunners wore air crew wings but wanted to be recognized for their role on the planes.

I have been told that you had to earn this badge by completeing a certain number of missions and that they were highly coveted.

Nice badge!

Allan

[Brian Keith]

I have one of those also and wondered what they were.

Thanks!

BKW

[wolventm]

I have one of those also and wondered what they were.

Thanks!

BKW

[wolventm]

I have seen the badge before, and the article in ASMIC although I do not have it. The article showed a graduate of aerial gunner school, he was wearing the badge you show on his leather billed hat, just above the chin strap and below the standard army enlisted hat badge. As I recall, the article said the badge was an award for graduating at the top of the class in aerial gunner school.

[John Cooper]

This is a tough one without seeing a reference to the regs on this specific award. Maybe someone has the trading post with the article and can quote it. As mentioned in the other post there was an award but it was phased out prior to WW2 and looked different than the device posted here.

 

I bounced this off a fellow collector I know who ownes a die that was used by the referenced company to make the center device which was patterened off the origional award. He feels that these are left overs someone decided to apply a pin to and sell.

 

I will have to check the campbell or fitzsimmons books because I think they cover the actual award and have a drawing of one.

 

John

[John Cooper]

Ok I found it in another reference work AAF & USAAF Decorations, Medals... by Aldebol. He has it listed as the Distingushed Aerial Gunnery Badge which was awarded in an annual competition prior to WW2.

 

It consisted of the winged bullet on a target background surrounded by a wreath. This was suspended from a bar with the word DISTINGUSHED. (The badge was gold)

 

Cheers,

 

John

[Allan H.]

As I said earlier, these were early aerial gunner qualification pins. The distinguished aerial gunner and aerial bomber badges resemble the expert shooting badge and were worn as such with the corresponding qualification bar.

I have seen several vintage photos of the badge being worn- never on a cap though. This is not some surplus "extra" but rather a distinguishing badge for qualified aerial gunners worn prior to the introduction of the Aerial Gunner wing.

Allan

[Wailuna]

Here are illustrations of the Distinguished Aerial Bomber and Distinguished Aerial Gunner badges taken from AR 600-35 -- Prescribed Service Uniform (1944 ed. the same badges are covered in the 1941 ed.)

 

While the regulation does not say much about these badges, Emerson covers their brief history in Marksmanship in the U.S. Army (pp. 174 -176). These were prestigious awards for winners of Army wide annual competitions in aerial gunnery and bombing. The badge was approved in 1928 and a total of seven badges were awarded in 1928 to the officers who won that year's competition and 19 badges were retroactively awarded to the officers who had won the 1926 and 1927 competitions. For various reasons (mainly financial), the annual competitions waned and the last award of these badges was made in 1932. Emerson does not give detailed accounting of the total number of awards made after 1928 but, obviously, there were very few of them awarded, making this a very rare badge. The badge was made by the Army (Rock Island Arsenal) 1926 - 1928 awards and Bailey, Banks & Biddle 1929 - 1932 awards. The badges were 14K gold plate and the presentation awards were named.

 

The qualification wing for bombardier was approved Sept. 4, 1942, and for aerial gunner April 29, 1943, and both these wing badges are shown in AR 600-35 (1944 ed.) along with the distinguished aerial bomber and aerial gunner badges, which were no longer awarded by then but still were technically authorized. There is no sign of the device shown at the beginning of this thread in either edition of AR 600-35 cited here or in Emerson's book. However, there is no reason to doubt the explanation that it was an interim qualification badge worn by aerial gunners before their wing was approved. We shouldn't overlook this badge's fine quality and that it is marked "Sterling" (the hallmark is obscured). Hypothesis: BB&B put this badge into play as a means to capitalize on its experience with the earlier bomber and gunner badges. However, until proved otherwise, I would conditionally consider this particular badge unauthorized but locally sanctioned.

[John Cooper]

As I said earlier, these were early aerial gunner qualification pins. The distinguished aerial gunner and aerial bomber badges resemble the expert shooting badge and were worn as such with the corresponding qualification bar.

I have seen several vintage photos of the badge being worn- never on a cap though. This is not some surplus "extra" but rather a distinguishing badge for qualified aerial gunners worn prior to the introduction of the Aerial Gunner wing.

Allan

 

Allan,

 

Can you post the photos? Additionally can you point to some specific reg or other official documentation that states this was official or whatever material you are basing this information on?

 

Thanks

[Austin_Militaria]

This was posted by TBMflyer in the post about Show your silver wings where this conversation 1st started. I do not have this issue or I would scan it too.

 

Rob, the ASMIC issue is Vol. LVI no 4, the Oct-Dec of 1997 issue, on page 16. I would scan it for you but my @#$% scanner is down, hope this helps, Mark.

[QED4]

I have that issue but hesitate to post a scan of it because it is copyrighted and I don't want the forum getting nasty letters from some lawyer but if ADMIN says it is OK I will. It dose show a picture of Frank Stout wearing one on his service cap below the hat badge. He got it at Air Gunnery School Kingman AZ for being the top of his class. It also says it is probably not authorized. It dose not pre-date the Aerial Gunner's Wings as he is wearing a them in the picture.

[Wailuna]

...I have that issue but hesitate to post a scan of it because it is copyrighted...

Fair use.

 

 

"Top Gun" World War II Style: The Trading Post, Vol LVI, No. 4, Oct. - Dec. 1997

[John Cooper]

I have that issue but hesitate to post a scan of it because it is copyrighted and I don't want the forum getting nasty letters from some lawyer but if ADMIN says it is OK I will. It dose show a picture of Frank Stout wearing one on his service cap below the hat badge. He got it at Air Gunnery School Kingman AZ for being the top of his class. It also says it is probably not authorized. It dose not pre-date the Aerial Gunner's Wings as he is wearing a them in the picture.

 

Thanks for posting this bit of info - as I suspected an unoffical award and may have just been at that training location and maybe even made buy removing them from a set of wings.

 

John

[John Cooper]

I am attampting to do a bit more digging to determine the years of service for Frank Stout. As noted by QED4 Frank is wearing the gunners wings so this photo and the article does not support the position that this was a pre 43 AG award for missions completed as mentioned in one post. The article does prove at least one school did give these out. I say school because the photo looks like a pre-deployment grad photo.

 

Now if there is other information available to support this being an award as stated in post 2 and 8 then I would love to see it. As soon as I do I will kick myself for letting two of them go...

 

John

BTW BIG THANKS TO QED4!!!

[Wailuna]

...I am attampting to do a bit more digging to determine the years of service for Frank Stout....

NARA's WWII Army enlistment record data base isn't much help (link here). There are 15 records named to a "Frank Stout" who enlisted or was inducted during the war. Any one of them could be your aerial gunner.

 

The Trading Post article states that Stout was assigned to 336th Bombardment Squadron (Heavy), 95th Bombardment Group (Heavy) and 95th BG(H) has a good Web site (link here). Frank Stout is not named on any of their rosters but you could enquire.

 

Or you could try the direct approach: Ask the author of that Trading Post article about Frank Stout. He (the author) is a member of ASMIC; it shouldn't be too hard to track him down.

[Gary Cain]

Hi John,

 

I don't know what these were but I can tell you that this piece of insignia was made this way, it was not removed from a wing to become what it is. The way you tell this is it is marked STERLING in addition to having a makers mark and that you would not find on an emblem removed from a wing.

 

 

Gary

Thanks for posting this bit of info - as I suspected an unoffical award and may have just been at that training location and maybe even made buy removing them from a set of wings.

 

John

[John Cooper]

Well it turns out that Frank Stout did not fly his first mission until 4.16.45 on the W.M. Warren crew (336th BS). At this point I am convinced that is just an unoffical school award vs. something earned in combat - or an early award pre AG wing award as stated.. that is unless there is more information from anyone prove it otherwise.

 

Gary - your point is well taken but I guess there is a bit of a mystery as to why make them? Sweetheart or..?

 

John

 

(edit) Allan H you have photos per another post of other guys wearing the award... do they provide any information to support your point? You may be correct which would make this rare (awarded for a very short time) if additional information can be uncovered...

[pfrost]

Likely, there is a some amount of truth behind all these theories. Another advanced wing collector friend of mine told me that he thought that these were worn by officers who had been trained as aerial gunners and who didnt want to have gunenr wings (since they were for enlisted men). I had heard the story about "top gunners" from the gunnery schools as well. As for these items being pre-gunnery awards before the wing was authorized, I would doubt that, as there would have been a regulation describing that.

 

On the other hand, AMICO made gunner wings using an observer wing base and an applied winged bullet. That means that AMICO would have had to had an equal number of observer wing bases and applied bullets. Any overstock of the winged bullets once they made their quota of aerial gunner wings, would have been just wasted resources. I wonder if some bright bulb at AMICO didnt come up with the idea of slapping a pin on them and selling them? Once they became available, anyone who wanted to buy one could have worn it as they saw fit (and the uniform police would allow). I suspect that this is the real story of why they exist. The fact that the show up with different stories isnt all that shocking. As I said, I have heard them being sold as sweetheart items, good luck charms, awards for shooting down an enemy aircraft, awards to "top gunners" of a school, worn by officers to indicate training in gunnery, etc.

 

Patrick

[Gary Cain]

Hi Patrick,

 

Based on how few of them there are out in the world my personal guess is what Allan H stated, this was the precurser to the standard AG wing. It is far too dificult (thus expensive) to take something that is allready made and then make a fixture to hold it so you can make a good maker mark strike to then sell it. This was struck with the markings when it was manufactured the first time around. They were not restruck with the maker mark at a later date. I also don't think they were a piece of sweetheart jewelry for the simple reason that it is a really cool piece and every Airgunner worth a dime would have bought one for his sweetie. But these are uncommon so that theory is no good in my opinion.

 

The most logical explanation for the manufacturing quality and the relative scarceness of this piece is that posted by Allan H. It is the precurser insignia for the Airgunner that was made probably on spec by AMICO and when the Airgunner Wing was adopted they just transitioned to the approved design.

 

Gary

 

 

 

 

 

Likely, there is a some amount of truth behind all these theories. Another advanced wing collector friend of mine told me that he thought that these were worn by officers who had been trained as aerial gunners and who didnt want to have gunenr wings (since they were for enlisted men). I had heard the story about "top gunners" from the gunnery schools as well. As for these items being pre-gunnery awards before the wing was authorized, I would doubt that, as there would have been a regulation describing that.

 

On the other hand, AMICO made gunner wings using an observer wing base and an applied winged bullet. That means that AMICO would have had to had an equal number of observer wing bases and applied bullets. Any overstock of the winged bullets once they made their quota of aerial gunner wings, would have been just wasted resources. I wonder if some bright bulb at AMICO didnt come up with the idea of slapping a pin on them and selling them? Once they became available, anyone who wanted to buy one could have worn it as they saw fit (and the uniform police would allow). I suspect that this is the real story of why they exist. The fact that the show up with different stories isnt all that shocking. As I said, I have heard them being sold as sweetheart items, good luck charms, awards for shooting down an enemy aircraft, awards to "top gunners" of a school, worn by officers to indicate training in gunnery, etc.

 

Patrick

[John Cooper]

Gary,

 

If this is the case why would Frank Stout get one at the end of the war? He did not fly very many missions? Without additional information any of the stories can be true or not...

 

As for rare I have seen two or three in the last 6 months on Ebay... so they are out there. It would be nice to see additional photos or other information beside the ASMIC article to base this point Allan made. Of the 1000's of books out there that cover the USAAF you would think there would be mention of this... I hope someone would be able to dig something up?

 

If the photos Allan stated he had could be tied to a specific unit\person we could possible verify if this was an award or not. At this case there is no hard information to support this being as put forward earlier in this thread.

 

John

 

Hi Patrick,

 

Based on how few of them there are out in the world my personal guess is what Allan H stated, this was the precurser to the standard AG wing. It is far too dificult (thus expensive) to take something that is allready made and then make a fixture to hold it so you can make a good maker mark strike to then sell it. This was struck with the markings when it was manufactured the first time around. They were not restruck with the maker mark at a later date. I also don't think they were a piece of sweetheart jewelry for the simple reason that it is a really cool piece and every Airgunner worth a dime would have bought one for his sweetie. But these are uncommon so that theory is no good in my opinion.

 

The most logical explanation for the manufacturing quality and the relative scarceness of this piece is that posted by Allan H. It is the precurser insignia for the Airgunner that was made probably on spec by AMICO and when the Airgunner Wing was adopted they just transitioned to the approved design.

 

Gary

[Gary Cain]

Hi John,

 

So far there is no evidence that Frank Stout ever existed. The man in the photo may be Frank but based on what others have said based on unit rosters he wasn't there. That aside, I look at it in terms of cost to manufacture and simple logic. Two or three in six months on ebay WORLDWIDE is not many when you consider that in the same time there will be two to three thousand AG wings posted.

 

Now we look at the manufacturing process. Dies were handmade in the 1940's. That is extremely time intensive and expensive. Companies for the most part don't do that will nilly. This insignia is manufactured as it is. It is not a modification for the reasons stated.

 

If it were a piece of sweetheart jewelry why aren't they everywhere? As a piece of jewelry it is one of the most attractive pieces I have ever seen. It is compact which means it could be worn in almost every situation, it looks awesome, it is well made, if mass produced it would be cheap, it is not made of a strategic material. In other words as a piece of jewelry it has everything going for it. It would literally have been the Pet Rock of WWII. And yet they are so uncommon as to be considered rare.

 

I have multiple pieces of jewelry that don't look anywhere near as cool, were expensive to buy, and were a pain to wear. And yet there are tons of those out there.

 

Logic tells us then that this was not a piece of jewelry. It had to be something else. The question then is what? If it were an award there would be some regulation governing it. If it were a local award it would not have been made by AMICO, it would have been made by a local jeweler.

 

So where does that leave us? We have a piece of insignia that was eventually an integral part(fundamentally unchanged) of a regulation wing that was approved by the US Army. The photo below is from page 204 of the excellent book Eagles Recalled and you will see the early British Airgunners insignia was, wait for it, a winged bullet.

As we all know militaries copy each other all the time, we even copied the German spike helmet in the 1880's. So with this evidence the most likely theory, and it is after all only a theory, is that this was the Army's first go round at a Airgunner insignia. And then just like the British did in 1943 we adopted the wing design instead.

 

 

Gary

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Gary,

 

If this is the case why would Frank Stout get one at the end of the war? He did not fly very many missions? Without additional information any of the stories can be true or not...

 

As for rare I have seen two or three in the last 6 months on Ebay... so they are out there. It would be nice to see additional photos or other information beside the ASMIC article to base this point Allan made. Of the 1000's of books out there that cover the USAAF you would think there would be mention of this... I hope someone would be able to dig something up?

 

If the photos Allan stated he had could be tied to a specific unit\person we could possible verify if this was an award or not. At this case there is no hard information to support this being as put forward earlier in this thread.

 

John

[pfrost]

Gary,

 

The fact of the matter is that AMICO made gunner wings in two pieces (as did many companies). So, they had to have the dies for the center winged bullet to make their gunner wings ANYWAY.

 

Since they needed two parts of their wing (the base and the center) if they had any extra "parts" then what to do with them? Observer wings, you could add a bomb or a navigator device, or a caduceus and make another style wing. But if you had extra center winged bullets, then it is not unreasonble to see that they could have added a pin and simply tried to sell them. IN fact, I have seen the same set up (AMICO marked with pin) on the center device for the bomardier wing (the little bomb). So, then didnt only do this with the winged bullet.

 

Maybe they didnt have that many, maybe they werent that popular, maybe they only sold them to a few stores. However, it is not out of the realm of posibility for this to have happened the way I described. They didnt have to make anything new that they werent already doing.

 

As for a pre-gunner wing qualification badge, I doubt that. There would be records of this being the case. I would direct you to the recent discussion about the BB&B jump wings where a great deal of paperwork was generated simply to get authorization for the original 300 paratrooper badges to be produced. John's point that there isnt any indication that a regulation existed is a very important point. These were (mostly) Army enlisted men going to a special school for training, and the official insignia that they were given would have been written down.

 

Also, the gunners already HAD a badge, the aircrewman wings. They may have liked the gunner wing better, but they had their official qualifiation badge already.

 

Patrick

[Gary Cain]

Hi Patrick,

 

Yes AMICO did have the die to make them but they would not have had the fixture to hold the winged bullet so that the makers mark and STERLING mark could be struck. That would have had to have been done seperately(if we are assuming that these are leftovers), but your argument doesn't answer my very basic question. Where are all the others?

 

We all know how the wings were made. What I want to know is why there aren't more of these out there? Or the bomb as well. If they were made into jewelry as leftover pieces, where are they? AMICO certainly wouldn't go through the expense to make a fixture for a hundred of them. A thousand maybe but based on how few show up we are talking in the realm of a few hundred that were made. That is not logical for a host of reasons.

 

On the other hand if this was made to be what it is, the dies would have been made for both sides and it would have all been struck at the same time. Now it is no longer a leftover it was made this way. So once again if it were jewelry where are they?

 

Your argument about the BB&B Para wing is one I have been following and there is a lot to be said for that. But, there are differences as well. The Army Air Force was allready established, the Parachute Force was being created out of whole cloth with the cocomittant scrutiny. There are thousands of documents that have been stored away and not brought to light yet due to lack of interest. Think about it a minute, research into an elite arm of the service is allways going to take precedence over a mundane thing like a flight crew.

 

All of your's and John's points are well taken but they don't answer the very basic question of why do we not see them in some quantity. If they are merely what you guys think them to be then there should literally be a sh**load of them out there, but there isn't. That leads me to believe they are something else.

 

 

 

Gary

 

 

 

Gary,

 

The fact of the matter is that AMICO made gunner wings in two pieces (as did many companies). So, they had to have the dies for the center winged bullet to make their gunner wings ANYWAY.

 

Since they needed two parts of their wing (the base and the center) if they had any extra "parts" then what to do with them? Observer wings, you could add a bomb or a navigator device, or a caduceus and make another style wing. But if you had extra center winged bullets, then it is not unreasonble to see that they could have added a pin and simply tried to sell them. IN fact, I have seen the same set up (AMICO marked with pin) on the center device for the bomardier wing (the little bomb). So, then didnt only do this with the winged bullet.

 

Maybe they didnt have that many, maybe they werent that popular, maybe they only sold them to a few stores. However, it is not out of the realm of posibility for this to have happened the way I described. They didnt have to make anything new that they werent already doing.

 

As for a pre-gunner wing qualification badge, I doubt that. There would be records of this being the case. I would direct you to the recent discussion about the BB&B jump wings where a great deal of paperwork was generated simply to get authorization for the original 300 paratrooper badges to be produced. John's point that there isnt any indication that a regulation existed is a very important point. These were (mostly) Army enlisted men going to a special school for training, and the official insignia that they were given would have been written down.

 

Also, the gunners already HAD a badge, the aircrewman wings. They may have liked the gunner wing better, but they had their official qualifiation badge already.

 

Patrick

[John Cooper]

Hi Gary thanks for the reply.

 

I want to correct you about Frank Stout - according to one of the BG historians he did serve in the unit mentioned in the article but flew his first mission in April 45! This fact alone calls into question the position that this was a pre 43 AG award for missions completed as stated in an earlier post.

 

As for your theory about this being the first go round I would have to call your attention to the fact that having a changeable center device to denote a specialty was an amendment to the original Adams design in 1919 i.e. there have been plans ever since to award wings to various aircrew positions.

 

At this juncture all we have are a few stories as to why someone would wear the device in question and nothing concrete to prove this was an official award which is my major point.

 

Regards,

John

 

Hi John,

 

So far there is no evidence that Frank Stout ever existed. The man in the photo may be Frank but based on what others have said based on unit rosters he wasn't there. That aside, I look at it in terms of cost to manufacture and simple logic. Two or three in six months on ebay WORLDWIDE is not many when you consider that in the same time there will be two to three thousand AG wings posted.

 

Now we look at the manufacturing process. Dies were handmade in the 1940's. That is extremely time intensive and expensive. Companies for the most part don't do that will nilly. This insignia is manufactured as it is. It is not a modification for the reasons stated.

 

If it were a piece of sweetheart jewelry why aren't they everywhere? As a piece of jewelry it is one of the most attractive pieces I have ever seen. It is compact which means it could be worn in almost every situation, it looks awesome, it is well made, if mass produced it would be cheap, it is not made of a strategic material. In other words as a piece of jewelry it has everything going for it. It would literally have been the Pet Rock of WWII. And yet they are so uncommon as to be considered rare.

 

I have multiple pieces of jewelry that don't look anywhere near as cool, were expensive to buy, and were a pain to wear. And yet there are tons of those out there.

 

Logic tells us then that this was not a piece of jewelry. It had to be something else. The question then is what? If it were an award there would be some regulation governing it. If it were a local award it would not have been made by AMICO, it would have been made by a local jeweler.

 

So where does that leave us? We have a piece of insignia that was eventually an integral part(fundamentally unchanged) of a regulation wing that was approved by the US Army. The photo below is from page 204 of the excellent book Eagles Recalled and you will see the early British Airgunners insignia was, wait for it, a winged bullet.

As we all know militaries copy each other all the time, we even copied the German spike helmet in the 1880's. So with this evidence the most likely theory, and it is after all only a theory, is that this was the Army's first go round at a Airgunner insignia. And then just like the British did in 1943 we adopted the wing design instead.

 

 

Gary