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B-29 Frozen in Time


namvet
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Thanks for explaining the comparison better, I understand what you were getting at.

 

But the argument comes down I have to be a musician before I can criticize music or be the president of the United States before I able to critique a sitting president. Do I have to be camped out with these guys and burn out a b-29 before I can make any kind of critique?

 

I read those articles as well and it doesn't appear they learned anything from the experience. Take apart the aircraft? His reply was "yeah right"... A bit condescending answer that he doesn't back up with anything. Reading his reply was just more of the same "we know better than you" attitude that seemed to be the tone of what led to this tragedy.

 

Having grown up with aviation since I was a kid, being good friends with Bob Hoover son and daughter In law, worked under Ed Maloney and regularly visiting David Tellichet hangers not to mention many other people that are involved one way or another with aircraft recovery that I meet with once a month, it's very much universal with the people I've spoken with that trying to fly a B-29 off the ice that has been sitting idle for 50 years was ill advised and headed for disaster.

 

 

Perhaps this group wasn't the right group to recover this aircraft if they didn't have the cash, time or technology to recover this aircraft safely for both the people involved and the aircraft itself.

 

Leonardo

Criticism should be offered only as a way of making improvements so that the next venture can benefit. Imagine yourself responsible for such an undertaking and you have two schools of thought, those who would give their right uhm, eyetooth to go with you but since they cannot offer you every bit of help available and then the naysayers. They are the ones who stand back and are loudest with the "I told you so's" when something goes wrong and less boisterous when there is success. Who would you prefer to get help from?

Which brings me back to the hypothetical overland option, how would you plan it answering the questions below?

Logistics:

1~What conveyance to use to bring out about ten sleds of aircraft parts?

2~How to support the vehicles and crews with fuel and basecamp type facilities?

3~Emergency Plan of Action

4~Financing

Area considerations:

1~Safe route for overland travel. Hidden crevaces, rise and fall of terrain {mountains}

2~Snow vs non snow {sled or trailer?}

I am no less profane than the next guy in my condemnation of the organizer of this expedition only because he became a little carried away and tried to taxi the aircraft when what he should have done was follow the plan. It was that one incident that doomed the expedition but until that instant what they HAD accomplished was and still is phenomenal. I have stood next to a lot of burning airplanes but, like a baseball player I have had my successes. As a matter of fact, I have had enough of each to be confident that my baseball analogy about percentages can be applied to aircraft recovery & restoration.

Thank you, B~17 guy because you also reminded me of another ongoing argument that arises each time something like a B~17 being lost to an unfortunate mishap, flying or static display. It is easier to offer the ridicule while the smoldering evidence is fresh in everyone's mind but it is much more difficult to press ahead through the smoldering evidence while that criticism is in everyone's mind.

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There is a lot of talking here. But the fact remains these guys screwed up royally. To say anything else is ignoring the facts. You can make it a gray issue if you like, but I prefer black and white, right or wrong. This was wrong and the wrecked results speaks loud and clear. My humble opinion, flame suit donned !!

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But the fact remains these guys screwed up royally.

Based on what testimony? One guy screwed up but that doesn't mean the rest of them did. Did any of them say they screwed up or is this an amateur indictment?

To say anything else is ignoring the facts.

Whose facts?

You can make it a gray issue if you like, but I prefer black and white, right or wrong.
This was wrong and the wrecked results speaks loud and clear. My humble opinion, flame suit donned !!
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Had these men flown her out....they would be heroes, they did their best. I'm sorry for all of us who will miss the opportunity to see her fly once again, but

I place no blame.

There's that word being thrown around again

 

I'd say if they had salvaged her, such as taking her apart and flying her home to preserve her for display, education and history, then they might be heroes, on the loose definition of the term

 

To call them heroes for trying to fulfill their childhood fantasies of flying a B-29 does not make them heroes. Because they had no requirement to do so, they just wanted to.

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Johnny Signor

I didn't mean any critisysm(spelling ?) in my post , what I meant to convey was , wasn't there a easier way they could ahev dismantled the '29 and even if over a couple of trips/years time brought it out some of it at a time ,by cargo aircraft in the smaller pieces , and then by land and or airlift by helo in the larger parts ?

 

They could have moved the sections soemwhere to store where it wouldn't have sunk in the ice and then collect it all when they could , just an idea , now it doesn't matter , but this 'could" have been a possibility ..................................................

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I echo the last post. They were obviously in a rush to get it out of there. All the time and flights to bring stuff in like engines and fuel, you would think they could have flown parts out instead.

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You can't tell if there is some hidden damage. A Flight Check Squadron at Tinker AFB when I was stationed there picked up a new to them T-29 and flew it from Hawaii to Oklahoma City. After they got it there it was found it had a broken wing spar, they were lucky.

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I didn't mean any critisysm(spelling ?) in my post , what I meant to convey was , wasn't there a easier way they could ahev dismantled the '29 and even if over a couple of trips/years time brought it out some of it at a time ,by cargo aircraft in the smaller pieces , and then by land and or airlift by helo in the larger parts ?

 

They could have moved the sections soemwhere to store where it wouldn't have sunk in the ice and then collect it all when they could , just an idea , now it doesn't matter , but this 'could" have been a possibility ..................................................

I don't mean to come on so strong about this but I have to ask if anyone has recently taken a good look at a map of the site and then the surrounding area?. Here's a map where "A" marks the spot: http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=80.262686,-60.529175&spn=0.01,0.01&t=h&q=80.262686,-60.529175 When you zoom out you can see that the coast is not too far to the west so why would they rule out moving the plane in pieces to the coast? Consider that you would probably need to break the airplane into roughly ten pallet loads totaling over 100,000 lbs which includes not only the plane but support equipment for the people doing the moving. Of course you could break the load down to twenty or thirty pallets but it all still totals the same amount.

What would you use to move all this? And how would you get all that stuff to the location.

Before I go any further there is another factor to consider that I only remembered today, the host nation. Greenland is not part of the US or Canada so travel to there and then to the interior is subject to the host country and they may not want tracked vehicles travelling hither and yon tearing up an eco system just for an airplane.

And those same diplomatic restrictions apply to landing at a US military base. People who come and go through Thule and the other bases are on official business and don't always have the same passport restrictions as civilians travelling unofficially.

If the host govt approves the overland travel there is still a problem, how to support this caravan as it makes it's way to the coast. By helicopter? From where? It's almost 300 miles to the nearest air base which brings it back to fixed wing support. But, as was shown in the Nova video there is a limit to the amount of flying the USAF will allow into Thule so the overland option becomes almost logistically impossible to plan.

One more thing and that is the topography itself. Just looking at the barren areas there are numerous ridges to be traversed and I really can't imagine any tracked vehicle being able to manage a large towed load through all that and I base this assessment on my time spent in Iceland, a country with many topographical similarities.

All along the point I have really been trying to make is that only the people on the expedition are in any position to be so severly critical of themselves. I wasn't there so the best I can do is applaud them for their tenacity to do as much as they did. Maybe it isn't my place to be critical of others here but I have been a little puzzled that a group such as those here who insist on the accuracy of the minutest details are so quick to castigate this event based upon postings to web sites, a video and their own belief that this expedition should never have been undertaken and the burning finale on the video is proof positive of how right they are.

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What would you use to move all this? And how would you get all that stuff to the location.

 

They make these things:

 

PH-10171a.jpg

 

how to support this caravan as it makes it's way to the coast. By helicopter? From where? It's almost 300 miles to the nearest air base which brings it back to fixed wing support.

 

Hardly. The Vertol 107s have a range of over 600 miles and their cargo capacity is measured in tons. If they did it right, they could support a Vertol on the same ship used to transport the parts. Otherwise, it's no big deal to set up a FARP close to the site.

 

If they didn't have the resources, smarts, or desire to do it right, they shouldn't have tried to cowboy it. I could have showed up with my 4WD truck, my two retarded cousins, a case of beer, some tow straps, and a new set of snow tires and done less damage trying to tow it out.

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Hardly. The Vertol 107s have a range of over 600 miles and their cargo capacity is measured in tons. If they did it right, they could support a Vertol on the same ship used to transport the parts. Otherwise, it's no big deal to set up a FARP close to the site.

Interesting. Are you confident enough to say that a V~107 would have been able to do a single vertical lift of 10,000 lbs or more of a non~standard, unstable, outsized load from that elevation {don't forget OGE hovering}?

If they didn't have the resources, smarts, or desire to do it right, they shouldn't have tried to cowboy it. I could have showed up with my 4WD truck, my two retarded cousins, a case of beer, some tow straps, and a new set of snow tires and done less damage trying to tow it out.

That's pretty good, thanks for lightening things up. I know beer is always appreciated but I'm not sure what you would do with snow tires on a glacier.

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Interesting. Are you confident enough to say that a V~107 would have been able to do a single vertical lift of 10,000 lbs or more of a non~standard, unstable, outsized load from that elevation {don't forget OGE hovering}?

 

That's pretty good, thanks for lightening things up. I know beer is always appreciated but I'm not sure what you would do with snow tires on a glacier.

Take the tube out and hit the slopes

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Then basically what you saying is until we try to recover a B-29 on a glacier and then burn it up ourselves we cannot have any opinion or critique on this endeviour.

 

Do you like hip hop? I'm sorry I can't have an opinion as I never wrote a hip hop song...

 

Leonardo

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Ivan had the bird.... thanks to several B-29s aborting their missions and landing on Soviet territory. A little reverse engineering and bingo...enter the TU-4! I daresay they've got still got the original US made ones secreted away somewhere, whole and/or in pieces? If the CAF or international warbird community want an airworthy B-29 to join "Fifi" maybe they should speak to Mr Putin?! ;)

post-8022-0-04160100-1353868338.jpg

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Ivan had the bird.... thanks to several B-29s aborting their missions and landing on Soviet territory. A little reverse engineering and bingo...enter the TU-4! I daresay they've got still got the original US made ones secreted away somewhere, whole and/or in pieces? If the CAF or international warbird community want an airworthy B-29 to join "Fifi" maybe they should speak to Mr Putin?! ;)

 

DAMN......have we stolen anything worthwhile of theirs lately???

 

(Do they have anything worthwhile??) :)

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DAMN......have we stolen anything worthwhile of theirs lately???

 

(Do they have anything worthwhile??) :)

 

 

Just most of Europe's oil and natural gas supplies....nothing much really! :o

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Then basically what you saying is until we try to recover a B-29 on a glacier and then burn it up ourselves we cannot have any opinion or critique on this endeviour.

 

Do you like hip hop? I'm sorry I can't have an opinion as I never wrote a hip hop song...

 

Leonardo

 

Well said Leonardo!!

 

 

That is a good one !! Had me laughing out loud!! :lol:

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vostoktrading

DAMN......have we stolen anything worthwhile of theirs lately???

 

(Do they have anything worthwhile??) :)

No, probably not. But the Chinese sure have and the Russians are pissed about it.

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Then basically what you saying is until we try to recover a B-29 on a glacier and then burn it up ourselves we cannot have any opinion or critique on this endeviour.

 

Do you like hip hop? I'm sorry I can't have an opinion as I never wrote a hip hop song...

 

Leonardo

I think you're still missing the point; what is YOUR basis for calling these guys "morons"? All the name dropping considered is there anything you have done that is at all close to what these guys did? Once again I speak about the overall operation and not just the singular incident that ended the project. In referencing them as "morons" are you speaking about how they got the project funded? How they got everything to the site? How they conducted a major rebuild of the airplane under conditions far less than a restoration facility like Chino? I can speak to some of those experiences which might explain why I take umbrage in the use of "morons" to characterize these men. Is it my place to do so? No more or less than how you choose to express yourself about this expedition.

That being said I would still do what I could to participate in something akin to this expedition, the "Glacier Girl" gig or even the Tallichet removal of the B~26s from Canada back in the '70s http://explorenorth.com/library/aviation/million_dollar_valley.html The conditions for the recovery of most aircraft are never ideal which adds to the challenge; success or failure is not nearly as important as making the effort. Having weathered plenty of similar failures I have a greater appreciation for those times I succeed as well as tremendous admiration for anyone who takes on such a venture.

What's hip~hop?

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