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2nd Infantry Division with Ranger patch


Skyligter
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Guys I need your opinion on this 2nd Infantry Divison cut down Ike jacket with the "Ranger Skull patch". The jacket seems legit in my opinion, but I do not know enough about the "Ranger Skull patch". Could it be a wartime piece or added later to increase the value of the jacket?

 

Thanks!

 

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carbinephalen

I do know that the 2nd Division soldiers were NOT awarded the Arrowhead Device as they landed on Omaha Beach on D+1 (June 7th, 1944)

 

However with this veteran being "Ranger" trained, I wouldn't rule it out completely that he wasn't in a Higgins Boat the day before. Stranger things have happened in this world of militaria. I believe that this one is unnamed and unidentifiable and the winning bidder is pretty much going to be purchasing a lot of eye candy!

 

Here is the link to the ended ebay listing

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/ORIG-2nd-INFANTRY-WWII-U-S-ARMY-EISENHOWER-JACKET-38L-LOADED-W-MEDALS-PATCHES-/181016521364?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2a256cea94&nma=true&si=4cDwOKt7iXnPlvyiwGs2LwnTADs%3D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

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The ribbon placement is totally wrong! Doesn't necessarily prove anything but it does sow seeds of doubt.

 

Ive noticed this on allot of uniforms. How important was it that they be in the correct order? Was it against regulation to wear them out of order?

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I've seen 5th Division uniforms with the arrowhead device even though they technically didn't qualify for it. Most vets that were coming home didn't care about the order of ribbons, they just wanted to get home as quick as possible!

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Some Engineers of the 2nd Division did in fact hit Omaha on D-Day and would most defenately qualify for the Invasion Arrowhead on their EAME Campaign Ribbon. We see here however the collar disc of the Infantry, not Engineers, no CIB either, it's possible there was INF from the 2nd Division on D-Day? thus far I havn't heard of it, just the Engineers, is it possable he was an Engineer on D-day and for the bulk of the war, then transfered to Infantry near wars end without seeing any Infantry type combat, thus no CIB? maybe, but I guess we'll never no more on this, since one would really need to do a thorough inspection of this jacket and all it's badges and patches. In any event just what is that skull patch anyway, I can't really seem to find any info on it, online or on the Forum.

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More information:

 

http://www.usmilitar...-patch-on-ebay/

http://www.usmilitar...-insignia-help/

 

What about wearing the patch on the right arm instead of the left arm as can be seen in all the other examples?

 

 

Thanks for the links, missed those, but then I was putting in the search box key words like Skull patch, ranger skull patch etc. It is interesting that the other uniform in the second link also has 2nd Inf Div patch type crests, though I think that jacket is a bogus one as it has M1951/52 OD on Blue Twill sergeant stripes on it, certainly not a WWII one if that how it was described :lol:

 

Is there a link or site that actually talks about this, I don't believe it was a completely seperate unit whithin the 2nd Division, so why the 2nd Division patch type crests, this what you would sometimes see being worn post VE day or alittle before in non Colorbearing units.

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On first looking the skull patch look,s very much like British No 3 Commando death head patch, having only researched imjin scouts can anyone tell me why there was a ranger unit in

2ID and was training conducted in U.S. before deployment or in ETO.

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Ive noticed this on allot of uniforms. How important was it that they be in the correct order? Was it against regulation to wear them out of order?

 

 

There is an order of precedence as laid down in the regulations...a kind of "pyramid of honor" if you will? The average GI "citizen soldier" wearing a typical trio of ribbons often displayed them out of sequence, so that much is neither uncommon nor unusual. However, a misplaced DUC is something else!

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More information:

 

http://www.usmilitar...-patch-on-ebay/

http://www.usmilitar...-insignia-help/

 

What about wearing the patch on the right arm instead of the left arm as can be seen in all the other examples?

 

I was watching this one and intended to bid but my computor dumped the log in connection.In my opinion the skull is Brit made and most likely applied at the time when the uniform was cut down from a 4pocket into an ike.THe tailor who done the alterations mostlikely didnt have an idea on which sleeve the skull was "officially"worn and placed it there.The vet may have even sewn it there.Hard to say.The jacket is a typical english looking tailored ike with the wide waist belt in my opinion.As for the PUC being out of place anything is possible.Have seen vendors find the insignias loose and pin them on at any random place or even family members who find loose ribbons tend to just pin them on at random spots.I got a 34th Division officers once and it had the CIB pinned over the right pocket.It had been there for ages and when I inquired the lady told me the kids had taken it to school off and on for many years for show and tell.(you old timers will know what this is) :D

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Hey everyone 9th Infantry was authorized the arrowhead for Normandy, at least according to the department of heraldry. http://www.history.army.mil/html/forcestruc/lineages/branches/inf/0009in.htm

 

I have seen the skull patch referred to as a "9th Infantry Regiment Ranger Patch" But I have also read that they took guys from different units throughout the division to go through the course.

 

As for the ribbon rack being out of order and the lack of a CIB I dont think either of those issues are disqualifiers for the coat being original, as mentioned previously, there could be traces of the CIB and it was simply removed for whatever reason.

 

Ryan

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I always wondered why the arrowhead myself with the 9th Infantry's Normandy campaign credit, we all seen that photo of 2nd Division GIs trudging up that hill from the beach after coming ashore on D-1 right, it dosn't look like they're nor the beach below them is taking fire, sure they could at any second be subjected to a sudden Artillery bombardment and the like, but from this photo at least things look calm enough, I guess the relaxed nature of this well known photo is deceptive.

 

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Found this bit of information, a period 2nd Inf Div booklet, in it it states that the lead elements of the 2nd Division came ashore ( presumably the 9th Infantry) came ashore under German Artillery fire, it's a good read this booklet a very detailed account. So at least as far as the 9th Infantry is conserned I gather then they recieved the Arrowhead device because of this landing was made while some however intense German Arty was incoming at the time they headed to the beach.

 

http://www.lonesentr...ts/2ndinfantry/

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Hey everyone 9th Infantry was authorized the arrowhead for Normandy, at least according to the department of heraldry. http://www.history.a...nf/0009in.htm

 

I have seen the skull patch referred to as a "9th Infantry Regiment Ranger Patch" But I have also read that they took guys from different units throughout the division to go through the course.

 

As for the ribbon rack being out of order and the lack of a CIB I dont think either of those issues are disqualifiers for the coat being original, as mentioned previously, there could be traces of the CIB and it was simply removed for whatever reason.

 

Ryan

 

I cant count the uniforms I have went to buy from family or veterans and after the deal is made they pull the CIB or wings off and keep them.

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A unit is authorized the arrowhead device for the type of assault they participate in, it does not reflect actual enemy contact, meaning in order to earn the arrowhead you dont have to be shot at, the only requirement is actual partcicpation in the assault. Department of Heraldry specifically defines the qualifying operation as: "to indicate participation in a combat parachute jump, combat glider landing, or amphibious assault landing (see link below)"

 

It is also specific to the individual, SO that 101 paratrooper that got wounded in the plane over France and never jumped did not qualify for the arrowhead. The soldiers has to actually leave the plane/boat/glider to earn the designation.

 

On top of all that it has to be a tactically assigned mission, so that OSS Ranger Airborne Ninja that decides to go Rouge, steal a plane in England and jump into Berlin to personally end the war by killing Hitler does not qualify.

 

 

http://www.tioh.hqda.pentagon.mil/Awards/EAME.aspx

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arrowhead_device

 

 

Now why the 9th Infantry Regiment recieved it, I have not been able to nail down. I thought I read somewhere that Engineers from 2ID participated on the landing on 6 June, and that the 2ID rangers provided security. But I cannot seem to find it right now.

 

Ryan

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The unit lineage page is from the US Army Center of Military History website, not the US Army Institute of Heraldry (note, not "Department"). Both sites should be regularly used by folks interested in Army unit history, lineages, awards, decorations and insignia.

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There is an order of precedence as laid down in the regulations...a kind of "pyramid of honor" if you will? The average GI "citizen soldier" wearing a typical trio of ribbons often displayed them out of sequence, so that much is neither uncommon nor unusual. However, a misplaced DUC is something else!

Yeah I can imagine the regular GI that didn't plan to make the military a career, wasn't to concerned with the placement his ribbons.

A unit is authorized the arrowhead device for the type of assault they participate in, it does not reflect actual enemy contact, meaning in order to earn the arrowhead you dont have to be shot at, the only requirement is actual partcicpation in the assault. Department of Heraldry specifically defines the qualifying operation as: "to indicate participation in a combat parachute jump, combat glider landing, or amphibious assault landing (see link below)"

 

It is also specific to the individual, SO that 101 paratrooper that got wounded in the plane over France and never jumped did not qualify for the arrowhead. The soldiers has to actually leave the plane/boat/glider to earn the designation.

 

On top of all that it has to be a tactically assigned mission, so that OSS Ranger Airborne Ninja that decides to go Rouge, steal a plane in England and jump into Berlin to personally end the war by killing Hitler does not qualify.

 

 

http://www.tioh.hqda...wards/EAME.aspx

 

http://en.wikipedia....rrowhead_device

 

 

Now why the 9th Infantry Regiment recieved it, I have not been able to nail down. I thought I read somewhere that Engineers from 2ID participated on the landing on 6 June, and that the 2ID rangers provided security. But I cannot seem to find it right now.

 

Ryan

 

I have always wondered if my grandpa was entitled to an arrowhead. None of his documentation mentions it, but he participated in the landings on Attu

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Yeah I can imagine the regular GI that didn't plan to make the military a career, wasn't to concerned with the placement his ribbons.

 

I dont really buy the idea that soldiers while still in service could wear their stuff as they saw fit, sure some probably did, but I would not say it was the norm. there were regulations and there were inspections, more than likely ribbons out of order are a result of them being taken off after service (for whatever reason) and put back on wrong. but that is all my personal opinoin. I know everyone likes to think a uniform is untouched since the vet got home and took it off, but the reality is these things got washed, dry cleaned, stuff was removed for shadow boxes etc. etc. etc. Not to say there is not that occasional one that was untouched, but disorder of ribbons on a uniform should not be looked into any more than at face value. Of course if their are pictures showing the wear of the ribbons or badges in that certain way then that is the ultimate proof. Anyway just my two cents.

 

I have always wondered if my grandpa was entitled to an arrowhead. None of his documentation mentions it, but he participated in the landings on Attu.

 

If you know your grandpa's unit? I can check for you.

 

Ryan

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I am NOT a fan of the skull patch. I've never heard if any of them being made after the initial batch made in the US and prersented to the men (doesn't mean someone didn't do it, but you need some proof). So it was not actually a generic "patch" but sort of liek a trophy item itself made by the officer's wives. So one made later on would have far less of a cache that an original.

 

I also doubt that any self respecting 2nd ID Ranger would wear it in the wrong location.

 

And when you start having to make mutliple excuses for why such a uniform would exist (like "maybe he did this, and then Maybe he did that") it just gets a bit much. Besides, the vast majority of the 2ID rangers were infantry. (scattered throughout the various regiments) And thus he would probablyhave been in one of the infantry regiments - and thus would wear infantry DI's.

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78 CARg,

 

Here is the info on your grandfather's unit as published in the Department of the Army Pamphlet 672-1 "Unit Citation and Campaign Participation Credit Register".

 

78th Coast Artillery Regiment (AA) (Less 3rd Battalion): Campaigns: Aleutian Islands; Distinguished Unit Citation: 18-26 May43; WD GO 10-44, Btry F, only.; A (assault)-Attu, 11 May-2 Jun 43, DA 72-48. Remember campaign stars and arrowhead devices are specific to the individual soldiers participation, so if your grandfather was not in the unit or did not make it off the landing craft then he did not recieve assault credit for the campaign. Hope this helps.

 

Ryan

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Maybe I have bad eyes, but the patch in the coat looks very similar in construction techniques as what Les Hughes refers to as the "Ft. Sam Houston variant" considering these were documented as being hand made by spouses there would be variations in the overall design and characteristics of the patch.

 

post-39901-0-57346800-1352985234.jpg post-39901-0-41664400-1352985253.jpg post-39901-0-08525400-1352985266.jpg post-39901-0-98480500-1352985282.jpg post-39901-0-05846900-1352985315.jpg

 

 

As for the wear of the patch on the right sleeve, I have not seen anything definative that states this stryker was required for wear on the left or right sleeve, and I mention this because I have seen patches and wings worn on the right sleeve of uniforms as much as worn on the left sleeve.

 

Here is one such example of a patch being worn on the right sleeve: http://www.usmilitar...182nd-regiment/

 

 

The other coat that is mentioned in this thread has the same DUI's as this coat, I wondering if the use of these DUI's is reflecting assignment as a Division level assests (I&R platoon comes to mind).

 

Just my two cents.

 

Ryan

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78 CARg,

 

Here is the info on your grandfather's unit as published in the Department of the Army Pamphlet 672-1 "Unit Citation and Campaign Participation Credit Register".

 

78th Coast Artillery Regiment (AA) (Less 3rd Battalion): Campaigns: Aleutian Islands; Distinguished Unit Citation: 18-26 May43; WD GO 10-44, Btry F, only.; A (assault)-Attu, 11 May-2 Jun 43, DA 72-48. Remember campaign stars and arrowhead devices are specific to the individual soldiers participation, so if your grandfather was not in the unit or did not make it off the landing craft then he did not recieve assault credit for the campaign. Hope this helps.

 

Ryan

 

Thank you so much! According to his DD-214 he arrived May 11, 1943 the day of the invasion. I also have a Enlisted mans pass dated 3/19/1943. Its signed by the company commander of Battery G 78th Coast Artillery so that shows he was with the 78th. He did end up going to a different unit the 591st AAA Bn, but it wasn't created till the 78th was broken up shortly after the battle for Attu.

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