Jump to content


a really odd WW2 First Army MP helmet

Started by jgawne , Sep 26 2012 03:53 PM

  • Please log in to reply
58 replies to this topic

#41 jpstout

jpstout
  • Members
    • Member ID: 3,673
  • 624 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:colorado

Posted 05 January 2013 - 03:37 PM

This underlines the saying "never say never".
Maybe the 1950s patch has its origins from this marking, maybe not.
It still is very interesting.
At least people are/were doing research to support bloodybucket's statement.

Erwin


I totally agree! Never say Never!
What a great thread and greatly appreciate the "coming together" of pertinent inormation.
And to Erwin's earlier question why this information hasn't surfaced before, all I can say is in my world of WWII USMC Aviation Squadron patches, we are still finding new patches/ variations and squadron info you'd think someone would have stumbled on in the last 70 or so years!! And with the internet, there is no question we can now put a lot of the parts and pieces together to complete the puzzle....
Great thread!

#42 Johan Willaert

Johan Willaert

    SENIOR MODERATOR

  • Senior Moderators
    • Member ID: 92
  • 7,317 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:ETO

Posted 06 January 2013 - 02:32 AM

1st US Army MPs in Aywaille, Belgium late 1944...

Attached Images

  • 1A-MP-Aywaille.jpg


#43 bloodybucket28th

bloodybucket28th
  • Members
    • Member ID: 86,182
  • 119 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:BELGIUM (ETO)

Posted 06 January 2013 - 12:20 PM

Thank you for sharing this beautiful pic Johan!

regards,

Mat

#44 GITom1944

GITom1944
  • Members
    • Member ID: 2,064
  • 801 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Connecticut

Posted 12 January 2013 - 10:53 AM

Here's another reference pic. Doesn't look like much at this size but there's an enlargement below.

Attached Images

  • SC-190626sa.jpg


#45 GITom1944

GITom1944
  • Members
    • Member ID: 2,064
  • 801 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Connecticut

Posted 12 January 2013 - 10:58 AM

Carentan June 19, 1944. There's also another pic showing the insignia on the Magnum photos website http://www.magnumphotos.com/ taken by Robert Capa. Search for PAR78102. I'd post the pic but don't want to infringe on the copyright.

Close-up of above.

Attached Images

  • SC-190626sn.jpg


#46 cavscout6b

cavscout6b
  • Members
    • Member ID: 123,609
  • 232 posts

Posted 01 July 2013 - 11:29 PM

I had initially wondered if the "white" was not actually yellow, but I guess it has been determined to be white and period correct.

 

The "SG" markings are a brief, immediate post-war addition for "Security Guard". Those were used by non-MP units, assigned to various guard duties in the military government section, from May-September of 1945.

 http://5thrangerbn.c...-the-sg-liners/

 

Also to note; the 713th MP Battalion was directly assigned to First Army HQ during WW2. It remained with them from D-Day (clearing traffic from Omaha Beach), until the end of the war (providing security at the Potsdam Conference). When the First Army returned to the US in late-1945, the battalion was moved to Luxembourg, where most personnel were discharged from the US Army, and sent home. It was deactivated, and later reconstituted as the 317th MP Bn. USAR.



#47 Johan Willaert

Johan Willaert

    SENIOR MODERATOR

  • Senior Moderators
    • Member ID: 92
  • 7,317 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:ETO

Posted 31 August 2013 - 02:38 AM

FWIW I spotted this one in the Baugnez Museum (Belgium) earlier this week... Don't know its history though...

 

 

Attached Images

  • Img_1691.jpg


#48 jgawne

jgawne
  • Members
    • Member ID: 1,657
  • 2,872 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Outside Boston USA

Posted 31 August 2013 - 10:27 AM

Unfortunately "SG" can also stand for "Special Guard" which is in the official 1944 Army dictionary as a standard term for guards assigned to a specific structure or area not covered by another unit.



#49 Johan Willaert

Johan Willaert

    SENIOR MODERATOR

  • Senior Moderators
    • Member ID: 92
  • 7,317 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:ETO

Posted 12 October 2013 - 03:01 AM

Here's another of the SG marked helmets... Still taken from George Stevens' D-Day to Berlin footage..

 

 

Attached Images

  • 1stArmySG-Helmet.jpg


#50 max0073

max0073
  • Members
    • Member ID: 1,011
  • 146 posts

Posted 13 October 2013 - 11:12 PM

Great picture !

 

Thank you. So pre-May '45 for sure

 

Max



#51 Baron3-6

Baron3-6
  • Members
    • Member ID: 83,679
  • 1,068 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Western Kentucky / Tennessee

Posted 29 October 2013 - 07:56 AM

Here's another of the SG marked helmets... Still taken from George Stevens' D-Day to Berlin footage..

 

 

 

Thats awesome....and it appears that it could almost be THE SG helmet from post #26...even the block lettering on the G is the same. If not the same one, at least  the same painter.  My guess is "Special Guard"...or escort, like the kind a Lt. Col. and a camera crew would need to drive around freely and shoot film.



#52 cavscout6b

cavscout6b
  • Members
    • Member ID: 123,609
  • 232 posts

Posted 12 January 2014 - 08:24 PM

Thread bumped = Beginning Round 2

#53 cavscout6b

cavscout6b
  • Members
    • Member ID: 123,609
  • 232 posts

Posted 12 January 2014 - 08:43 PM

The late-1945 listing is good information; but not accurate for WW2 service.
http://militarypolic...N LATE 1945.pdf

By the time it was made, the US First Army was back in the US; and several battalions had returned stateside or moved to other commands. (Example: The 783rd was assigned to & fought with 1st Army, from Normandy until the end. By the time the list was made, the 783rd was at Camp Claiborne, LA. Not a very accurate description of their wartime service/assignment.)
I have found a few units that the late-1945 list doesn't accurately reflect their wartime service, assigment, or previous locations.

#54 cavscout6b

cavscout6b
  • Members
    • Member ID: 123,609
  • 232 posts

Posted 12 January 2014 - 08:52 PM

I'm going to go out on a limb and wonder if the 518th ( if it was that unit) just happened to be the unit assigned to guarding the first army HQ area. I can't recall if I have a list of First Army attachments or not someplace.


Nope. The 518th was directly assigned to VIII Corps.

#55 cavscout6b

cavscout6b
  • Members
    • Member ID: 123,609
  • 232 posts

Posted 13 January 2014 - 12:13 AM

Ooops... I stand corrected: The 818th MP Co. was directly assigned to VIII Corps; not the 518th MP Bn. (I mistook the 8 to be a 5 in a photo.)



#56 GITom1944

GITom1944
  • Members
    • Member ID: 2,064
  • 801 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Connecticut

Posted 14 January 2014 - 06:05 PM

Here's another reference pic. From the NARA Signal Corps collection. Summary Court, Belgium, 4 November 1944. The arresting MP is Basil Smith of the 509th MP Bn. The First Army style insignia is on Smith's helmet as well as the podium.

Attached Images

  • 509th MP.jpg


#57 GITom1944

GITom1944
  • Members
    • Member ID: 2,064
  • 801 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Connecticut

Posted 14 January 2014 - 06:12 PM

Both the 518th MP Bn. and the 509th MP Bn. were assigned directly to First Army for Operation Neptune & the marking shows up in Normandy photos shortly after D-Day. Just a guess - perhaps this is a symbol for First Army Provost Marshal and might have been used by army-level MP units.

Attached Images

  • ist Army MP bn s.jpg


#58 cavscout6b

cavscout6b
  • Members
    • Member ID: 123,609
  • 232 posts

Posted 14 January 2014 - 11:26 PM

Both the 518th MP Bn. and the 509th MP Bn. were assigned directly to First Army for Operation Neptune & the marking shows up in Normandy photos shortly after D-Day. Just a guess - perhaps this is a symbol for First Army Provost Marshal and might have been used by army-level MP units.

 

AWESOME PHOTO !!!

What reference did you use in finding this information? (Thats the kind of material I have been looking for.) I have thought about trying to format a spreadsheet with listings & assigments for MP units in the ETO; but time & computer skills are a premium with me. :wacko:

 

Can you please check the list again, and see if there is mention of the 783rd or 713th MP Battalions? Both were supposedly assigned to 1st Army, but parceled out at various times. Neither wore the emblem you indicated, so it may have been just the 509th & 518th.

 

C Co./783rd MP - Passed to 5th & 6th ESB on 6/9/44. Landed 6/10/44 and cleared traffic from Omaha Beach.

D Co./783rd MP - Passed to 1st ESB on 6/3/44. Landed 6/10/44 and cleared traffic from Utah Beach.



#59 GITom1944

GITom1944
  • Members
    • Member ID: 2,064
  • 801 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Connecticut

Posted 15 January 2014 - 09:23 AM

The photo was scanned at the National Archives; the info regarding the 518th & 509th MP Bns came from Fold3, specifically WWII War Diaries, First Army Report of Operations in the Invasion of Normandy. Search engines can be funky... It took me quite a while to find the reference a 2nd time. Fold3 is a subscription site, but if you are looking for this kind of info, it is cheaper than traveling to College Park, MD. At the moment I have to defer on the 783rd & 713th but I am certain info for both is on Fold3.

 

Regarding the insignia, I'm thinking it might also represent First Army Headquarters or First Army Special Troops, but that is just speculative. Given that this marking shows up so quickly in Normandy, I suspect the insignia was added in England before D-Day when troops were still in garrison (I don't think MP Bns that had just arrived in Normandy during the hectic build-up period would have had their guys turning in their pots for insignia painting).




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users


In Memory of Co-Founder GREG MILLS ROBINSON, a.k.a. "Marine-KaBar"
(February 17, 1949 - March 5, 2011)