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a really odd WW2 First Army MP helmet


jgawne
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This ref a posting in the dispay section, that hsows a supposed first Army MP helmet with white band and red/white First Army insignia. However the owner has also posted a photo that was taken int he ETo in 1944 (so not post war) showing what looks darn close to it in use.

 

For me, this is the first use of the red/white First Army insignia I have ever seen, and this should be looked into as it kind of defies explanation.

 

http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/ind...howtopic=148272

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As collectors many people think things are "impossible". But even the short time that I've been collecting there have been many examples of "thats not right!!!" then a period picture pops up. I'm of the mind never say never on some things, of course within reason.

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I still am not convinced either.

Where are the photos of the other helmets "bloodybucket" speaks about?

Why hasn't he posted evidence of them in use in 1944?

It's not because "it was found in Mons/Normandy/Bastogne/Überflackenpoepensele" that it is real.

We're 70 years later for god's sake!

 

The photo of the MP that's posted is way too unclear to make it 100% sure it is that type of marking.

I personally still am waiting for clear photographic evidence that a 1950s marking was worn on a helmet in 1944.

 

In other posts of marked helmets, these are taken apart and put under harsh scrutiny sometimes .... and this one gets accepted by 1 (ONE!) unclear photo??????

Really???? :blink::o

 

My two cents,

Erwin

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Überflackenpoepensele"?! Is that anywhere near "Gilly-Gilly Ossenfeffer Katzenellenbogen by the Sea", Erwin? :wink2:

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Here's my two cents: I was the one that posted the two pictures in bloodybucket28th's original post. My opinion is that the red/white marking on bloodybucket28th's helmet is not a First Army insignia. I also believe the two photos, while not distinct, do show a similar, if not identical insignia in use during the summer of 1944 by some MPs in France. It is not a Divisional or Corps insignia. If the First Army had never changed their insignia in the 50's we would not be "seeing" a red/white First Army patch being used before it was designed and authorized. Instead we would just be seeing a red/white rectangle with what looks like an "A" shape on it. The "A" shape may not be black; it might be OD. To not run on more, my opinion is this is an insignia for one of the separate MP Battalions attached to the First Army.

post-2064-1349359020.png

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this is a real ETO helmet found in Mons in Belgium.

 

I know 2 other helmets and one liner.

 

 

Any chance of getting pics of these posted for comparision???

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Hi,

 

in spearheading D-Day, page 31 of the french version, chapter 1. You should have a look to the pic where a MP is sleeping on his bike and especially on the helmet of the soldier resting against the tree (sorry, I have no scanner and a crappy mobile phone camera).

 

The helmet looks really like a one illustrated in the other post.

 

Max

 

PS : I have for my part a first army SG helmet (Security Guard)

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Hi,

 

in spearheading D-Day, page 31 of the french version, chapter 1. You should have a look to the pic where a MP is sleeping on his bike and especially on the helmet of the soldier resting against the tree (sorry, I have no scanner and a crappy mobile phone camera).

 

The helmet looks really like a one illustrated in the other post.

 

Max

 

PS : I have for my part a first army SG helmet (Security Guard)

Well Jon, it's your book, what do you think?

 

As for the markings, I believe these to be more of an individual MP unit marking having nothing to do with 1st Army.

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bloodybucket28th

34gre2x.jpg

 

Is it this pitcure Max?

 

I'll ask my friend if I can get one picture of his liner.

 

Max, I know 2 SG first army too :)

 

Can you post some picts of it?

 

Mat

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Whatever the outcome is on these, I have to admit that I really like these helmets. I also believe them to be WWII era, just not sure it's First Army even though the "A" looks similar. New things come to light every year that we didn't see before, this is just another one of those items.

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You beat me to it - I stumbled across this (helmet at Baugnez 44) in my pics from Belgium and was going to post it today. Oh well. I have no opinion on the 1st Army marking issue, but I think it (they) are nice helmets either way.

-Lee

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You beat me to it - I stumbled across this (helmet at Baugnez 44) in my pics from Belgium and was going to post it today. Oh well. I have no opinion on the 1st Army marking issue, but I think it (they) are nice helmets either way.

-Lee

 

....me too :lol: I was going through my photos from Baugnez because I thought I recalled seeing a similar helmet there...amongst the dozens of amazing helmets they have on display!

 

Rick

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bloodybucket28th - Thanks for posting the additional pics. And congratulations on having a great WW2 MP helmet in your collection.

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Close up...

 

post-2757-1349485762.jpg

 

 

Now thats got a A, A for Army, First Army. theory, some one in the late 40s remembered this marking and thought it would be perfect for a new design of First Army's shoulder patch :D. But the question still would remain, was this marking worn by every Military Police Battalion and or Company within First Army, or was it worn by just one unit only, with others having other ones, even to the point of have this White Red marking, but with no A on it?

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Just wondering - and maybe this is a silly remark - if the lower part is really red?

It is afterall a black & white photograph, no?

It seems strange to me that, after all the research many people have done (including Mr. Gawne), this has not surfaced before.

On the other hand "patches" might be on to something ... it would not be the first time some unofficial insignia got approved some time later.

 

Erwin

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Just wondering - and maybe this is a silly remark - if the lower part is really red?

It is afterall a black & white photograph, no?

It seems strange to me that, after all the research many people have done (including Mr. Gawne), this has not surfaced before.

On the other hand "patches" might be on to something ... it would not be the first time some unofficial insignia got approved some time later.

 

Erwin

 

 

The Flag of an ARMY is White -Red, a perfect symbol as a insignia as it were for an Army unit, a unit that is assigned directly to an Army as Army Troops, whether Field or the two that where stateside. this use of these colors does have president, it was incorporated into the colors of the 2nd Army.

 

The patch of 2nd Army though is reversed Red on top White on the bottom, also this is the colors of 1st Army post war I gather, in WWII and pre war, not sure if the A was on a OD background or the A standing centered alone.

post-34986-1349547466.jpg

post-34986-1349547475.png

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