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a really odd WW2 First Army MP helmet


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#1 jgawne

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Posted 26 September 2012 - 03:53 PM

This ref a posting in the dispay section, that hsows a supposed first Army MP helmet with white band and red/white First Army insignia. However the owner has also posted a photo that was taken int he ETo in 1944 (so not post war) showing what looks darn close to it in use.

For me, this is the first use of the red/white First Army insignia I have ever seen, and this should be looked into as it kind of defies explanation.

http://www.usmilitar...howtopic=148272

#2 bloodybucket28th

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 11:14 AM

this is a real ETO helmet found in Mons in Belgium.

I know 2 other helmets and one liner.

Edited by bloodybucket28th, 03 October 2012 - 11:14 AM.


#3 jkash23686

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 02:19 PM

As collectors many people think things are "impossible". But even the short time that I've been collecting there have been many examples of "thats not right!!!" then a period picture pops up. I'm of the mind never say never on some things, of course within reason.

Edited by jkash23686, 03 October 2012 - 02:20 PM.


#4 LarryM3

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 05:37 PM

Does not look like a 1st Army insignia to me, I don't see the 'A' on the red/white field, am I missing something? Larry

#5 Jeeper704

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 09:39 PM

I still am not convinced either.
Where are the photos of the other helmets "bloodybucket" speaks about?
Why hasn't he posted evidence of them in use in 1944?
It's not because "it was found in Mons/Normandy/Bastogne/Überflackenpoepensele" that it is real.
We're 70 years later for god's sake!

The photo of the MP that's posted is way too unclear to make it 100% sure it is that type of marking.
I personally still am waiting for clear photographic evidence that a 1950s marking was worn on a helmet in 1944.

In other posts of marked helmets, these are taken apart and put under harsh scrutiny sometimes .... and this one gets accepted by 1 (ONE!) unclear photo??????
Really???? :blink: :o

My two cents,
Erwin

#6 Sabrejet

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 10:28 PM

Überflackenpoepensele"?! Is that anywhere near "Gilly-Gilly Ossenfeffer Katzenellenbogen by the Sea", Erwin? :wink2:

#7 GITom1944

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 06:00 AM

Here's my two cents: I was the one that posted the two pictures in bloodybucket28th's original post. My opinion is that the red/white marking on bloodybucket28th's helmet is not a First Army insignia. I also believe the two photos, while not distinct, do show a similar, if not identical insignia in use during the summer of 1944 by some MPs in France. It is not a Divisional or Corps insignia. If the First Army had never changed their insignia in the 50's we would not be "seeing" a red/white First Army patch being used before it was designed and authorized. Instead we would just be seeing a red/white rectangle with what looks like an "A" shape on it. The "A" shape may not be black; it might be OD. To not run on more, my opinion is this is an insignia for one of the separate MP Battalions attached to the First Army.

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  • Helmet_Marking_post.png


#8 Sabrejet

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 06:31 AM

Logical...and nice graphics! :think:

#9 doyler

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 06:37 AM

this is a real ETO helmet found in Mons in Belgium.

I know 2 other helmets and one liner.



Any chance of getting pics of these posted for comparision???

#10 max0073

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 09:50 AM

Hi,

in spearheading D-Day, page 31 of the french version, chapter 1. You should have a look to the pic where a MP is sleeping on his bike and especially on the helmet of the soldier resting against the tree (sorry, I have no scanner and a crappy mobile phone camera).

The helmet looks really like a one illustrated in the other post.

Max

PS : I have for my part a first army SG helmet (Security Guard)

Edited by max0073, 04 October 2012 - 09:50 AM.


#11 Bugme

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 09:56 AM

Hi,

in spearheading D-Day, page 31 of the french version, chapter 1. You should have a look to the pic where a MP is sleeping on his bike and especially on the helmet of the soldier resting against the tree (sorry, I have no scanner and a crappy mobile phone camera).

The helmet looks really like a one illustrated in the other post.

Max

PS : I have for my part a first army SG helmet (Security Guard)

Well Jon, it's your book, what do you think?

As for the markings, I believe these to be more of an individual MP unit marking having nothing to do with 1st Army.

#12 bloodybucket28th

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 11:14 AM

Posted Image

Is it this pitcure Max?

I'll ask my friend if I can get one picture of his liner.

Max, I know 2 SG first army too :)

Can you post some picts of it?

Mat

Edited by bloodybucket28th, 04 October 2012 - 11:19 AM.


#13 bloodybucket28th

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 11:30 AM

Posted Image

On this picture, we can easily see a rest of black paint for the A (First Army).

#14 bloodybucket28th

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 11:58 AM

This is the liner of my friend :

Posted Image

Posted Image

Edited by bloodybucket28th, 04 October 2012 - 12:00 PM.


#15 bloodybucket28th

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 12:08 PM

This is another example in the Baugnez44 historical museum (Belgium)

Posted Image

#16 Bugme

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 12:17 PM

Whatever the outcome is on these, I have to admit that I really like these helmets. I also believe them to be WWII era, just not sure it's First Army even though the "A" looks similar. New things come to light every year that we didn't see before, this is just another one of those items.

#17 Gruntdoc

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 01:53 PM

You beat me to it - I stumbled across this (helmet at Baugnez 44) in my pics from Belgium and was going to post it today. Oh well. I have no opinion on the 1st Army marking issue, but I think it (they) are nice helmets either way.
-Lee

#18 1canpara

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 01:57 PM

You beat me to it - I stumbled across this (helmet at Baugnez 44) in my pics from Belgium and was going to post it today. Oh well. I have no opinion on the 1st Army marking issue, but I think it (they) are nice helmets either way.
-Lee


....me too :lol: I was going through my photos from Baugnez because I thought I recalled seeing a similar helmet there...amongst the dozens of amazing helmets they have on display!

Rick

#19 GITom1944

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 02:10 PM

bloodybucket28th - Thanks for posting the additional pics. And congratulations on having a great WW2 MP helmet in your collection.

#20 Sabrejet

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 10:03 PM

What an intriguing thread this has been! :thumbsup:

#21 swag

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 05:09 PM

Thought I'd add the these two pictures from the other thread...

MP_Helmet_1st_Army_Crop_1.jpg

#22 swag

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 05:09 PM

Close up...

MP_Helmet_1st_Army_Crop_2.jpg

#23 patches

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 05:17 PM

Close up...

MP_Helmet_1st_Army_Crop_2.jpg



Now thats got a A, A for Army, First Army. theory, some one in the late 40s remembered this marking and thought it would be perfect for a new design of First Army's shoulder patch :D. But the question still would remain, was this marking worn by every Military Police Battalion and or Company within First Army, or was it worn by just one unit only, with others having other ones, even to the point of have this White Red marking, but with no A on it?

#24 Jeeper704

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 12:10 AM

Just wondering - and maybe this is a silly remark - if the lower part is really red?
It is afterall a black & white photograph, no?
It seems strange to me that, after all the research many people have done (including Mr. Gawne), this has not surfaced before.
On the other hand "patches" might be on to something ... it would not be the first time some unofficial insignia got approved some time later.

Erwin

#25 patches

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 10:17 AM

Just wondering - and maybe this is a silly remark - if the lower part is really red?
It is afterall a black & white photograph, no?
It seems strange to me that, after all the research many people have done (including Mr. Gawne), this has not surfaced before.
On the other hand "patches" might be on to something ... it would not be the first time some unofficial insignia got approved some time later.

Erwin



The Flag of an ARMY is White -Red, a perfect symbol as a insignia as it were for an Army unit, a unit that is assigned directly to an Army as Army Troops, whether Field or the two that where stateside. this use of these colors does have president, it was incorporated into the colors of the 2nd Army.

The patch of 2nd Army though is reversed Red on top White on the bottom, also this is the colors of 1st Army post war I gather, in WWII and pre war, not sure if the A was on a OD background or the A standing centered alone.

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  • Second_Army.jpg
  • FlagArmies.png

Edited by patches, 06 October 2012 - 10:19 AM.



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