1840 1860 1872 sabres and swords

[SARGE]

Hi Sarge

Thanks, They are both heavy flat back heavy calvary sabres. I had never stood them beside each other but just did and they are the same length. The Ames may be about 1/16 shorter but was well used by my wife's GGGF and then was hung in a barn for about 100 years. The S&K is in much better condition.

 

The Ames prob was enlisted style (that does mean no scroll work on guard and no acid etching right?)but blade is very rusted and it was missing the guard and handle which I replaced with a replica. I keep hoping the original will show up since we are back in the area. I doubt if it was ever thrown away and hope someone just put it in a drawer. Yes I know, wishful thinking.

 

I will get a pic of them beside each other if you would like to see both.

 

The S&K has no US markings that I can find. according to the below reference they were not marked with US anywhere.

 

http://www.awod.com/cwchas/m1840.html

 

Copdoc,

 

I would like to see photos of your two swords.

 

And, yes the enlisted styles do not have etched blades or scroll work on the guard. You kind of take what you can get with family heirlooms, so I applaud your work on making your family sword presentable.

 

You might want to start a new thread with your swords so we don't hijack noworky's thread by going off on a tangent. Although I am usually more guilty of sideways birdwalking than about anyone else.

[copdoc]

Copdoc,

 

I would like to see photos of your two swords.

 

And, yes the enlisted styles do not have etched blades or scroll work on the guard. You kind of take what you can get with family heirlooms, so I applaud your work on making your family sword presentable.

 

You might want to start a new thread with your swords so we don't hijack noworky's thread by going off on a tangent. Although I am usually more guilty of sideways birdwalking than about anyone else.

Hi Sarge

Yes, I am guilty of sidewalking. I should have provided only the info not the questions to his thread. Apologies to noworky who may post on mine anytime. Had a long day today but will get some pics tomorrow and post them on another thread. Fell lucky just to have a few heirlooms from the past generations who gave so much even if most of them are well used. We had few high ranking officers over the past 200 years so most of the family stuff is well worn.

[Bob Hudson]

You might want to start a new thread with your swords so we don't hijack noworky's thread by going off on a tangent.

 

Actually it's nice to see information such as this all in one place so that others with questions don't have too jump around the forum too much. I can't find any other forum thread with even this much on the 1800's swords and sabres and I will change the post's title a bit to direct others here as well.

[copdoc]

Actually it's nice to see information such as this all in one place so that others with questions don't have too jump around the forum too much. I can't find any other forum thread with even this much on the 1800's swords and sabres and I will change the post's title a bit to direct others here as well.

 

Here is a photo. I don't have any 1860s or 1872s for scale so I used 2 others.

 

1. Leech and Rigdon CS Infantry Officer's saber for scale.

2. Ames 1840 Heavy back Calvary Sabre caried by BG Ijames from NC in Company H of the 5th Regiment NC Calvary (63 Regiment NC Troops)

Apparently they became part of the Army of Northern Virginia (Gordan's Brigade). Any CS historians out there? Guard and handle are new

replacements.

3. Schnitzler & Kirschbaum heavy flat back calvary sabre prob one of the ones (referenced in the link below) as an M1822 French Sabre made by S&K

for the US Army tests and used as a model for Ames to make the M1840 "wristbreaker" (the appear the same in weight, length, etc)

4. Springfield M1902 for scale.

 

Will add close ups if interest.

 

[SARGE]

Copdoc,

 

Very nice swords!

 

Is your Schnitzler & Kirschbaum sabre missing the throat piece? I can't tell from the photo but that seems to be fairly common with these swords. Is this sword S&K marked on the blade ricasso and the scabbard drag or just one place? A very nice looking S&K.

 

If I may make a suggestion on your family Ames 1840 restoration... The grip should look like the S&K rather than having a swell in the center like the later 1860 style of light cavalry sabre. You could get these grips from S&S Fireams some years ago but I don't know if they still have them. They are actually easier to make because the wood block is simply oval and conical without the troublesome central swell. You can wrap the wood with spaced heavy twine, then cover it with wet leather which is then shrunk into place. You can then wrap your wire between the spaced sections of covered twine and you are done.

 

Here is an example of how this construction looks on a Civil War Tiffany heavy cavalry sabre made by PDL.

 

 

The grip itself showing the shape and construction .

 

 

I hope this is helpful. And, yes I would like to see some closeups of the markings if possible.

[copdoc]

Copdoc,

 

Very nice swords!

 

Is your Schnitzler & Kirschbaum sabre missing the throat piece? I can't tell from the photo but that seems to be fairly common with these swords. Is this sword S&K marked on the blade ricasso and the scabbard drag or just one place? A very nice looking S&K.

 

If I may make a suggestion on your family Ames 1840 restoration... The grip should look like the S&K rather than having a swell in the center like the later 1860 style of light cavalry sabre. You could get these grips from S&S Fireams some years ago but I don't know if they still have them. They are actually easier to make because the wood block is simply oval and conical without the troublesome central swell. You can wrap the wood with spaced heavy twine, then cover it with wet leather which is then shrunk into place. You can then wrap your wire between the spaced sections of covered twine and you are done.

 

Here is an example of how this construction looks on a Civil War Tiffany heavy cavalry sabre made by PDL.

 

 

The grip itself showing the shape and construction .

 

 

I hope this is helpful. And, yes I would like to see some closeups of the markings if possible.

Thanks Sarge, for the comment and the help.

 

I find it more difficult to find consistant information on swords than firearms. I will try to get a more correct handle for the Ames.

 

I bought the S&K from a very well know CW dealer who sold it to me just to take apart and repair the family sword. He said it was just another import. It is not marked on the ricasso at all. The S&K on the back was not visable until I cleaned off a bit of rust. After reseaching the blade and finding out these were the first US order for this type of sword, I am not going to break it up for parts. The Ames is in rougher shape than the S&K so they would not look much better than the replica. I might find a guard or even "the" guard eventually. I keep hoping a family member will find it and want to sell it. A brass guard would prob never get thrown away.

 

Here are the pics of the S&K. (I'll get pics of the Ames next.) It has the leather throat piece and was marked on the back of the blade. Is that the drag?

 

I put it on the German MFF. http://www.militaria-fundforum.de/showthre...highlight=m1840

 

and German Edged Weapons Forum http://www.deutsches-blankwaffenforum.de/t...ight=m1822&

 

I found out the RG was a mark for Revisons Commission which means the sword did not pass the initial exam but was corrected and approved for service.

 

 

[SARGE]

Copdoc,

 

Your Schnitzler & Kirschbaum was indeed inspected by Prussian inspectors. The Crowned/C is the specific inspector and the Crowned/RC is the Revisions Control stamp. The RC mark is interesting in that it allowed a slightly out of spec sword to still be accepted for military use without blame falling on the primary inspector. In the US we only had pass-fail inspections and failures were stamped with a C indicating condemed. Is there a two digit date stamp near these other markings?

[copdoc]

Hi Sarge

I don't see a date code. One if the German forums asked if it was stamped FW47 which would mean it was a M1822 but it is not. I wish you could look at it in person. I might have missed something.

 

Does your Tiffany heavy cavalry sabre have a flat or rounded back?

 

Here is a close up of the Ames. Sorry one pic is not very good.

 

 

[SARGE]

Copdoc,

 

The Tiffany heavy cavalry sabre has a flat back. These were made by Peter Daniel Luneschloss in Solingen and Tiffany imported them duirng the CW. They have an iron hilt, as did the British style swords that Tiffany also imported.

[copdoc]

Copdoc,

 

The Tiffany heavy cavalry sabre has a flat back. These were made by Peter Daniel Luneschloss in Solingen and Tiffany imported them duirng the CW. They have an iron hilt, as did the British style swords that Tiffany also imported.

That is a nice sword and interesting piece of history Sarge. Glad this was pinned there is a pretty good start to the whole series 1840/60/72. Any truth to the few references that a few US swords (M1872s, M1902s M1906s and/or M1913s) were actually used in WWI? I guess if they used pikes and trench clubs a sword would certainly be an advantage.

[SARGE]

That is a nice sword and interesting piece of history Sarge. Glad this was pinned there is a pretty good start to the whole series 1840/60/72. Any truth to the few references that a few US swords (M1872s, M1902s M1906s and/or M1913s) were actually used in WWI? I guess if they used pikes and trench clubs a sword would certainly be an advantage.

 

 

I don't know if anyone went over the top with a sword in WWI much after 1914. I do know that German officers were told to send their swords home after trench warfare set in. That is why German officers took to wearing the short KS98 bayonet with an officer's Portepee... they had no more swords. By the time the US got into the war I can't imagine American soldiers carrying swords in the face of machine guns. I do bet that there were probably some contrary US soldiers who took their swords to war though.

[copdoc]

I don't know if anyone went over the top with a sword in WWI much after 1914. I do know that German officers were told to send their swords home after trench warfare set in. That is why German officers took to wearing the short KS98 bayonet with an officer's Portepee... they had no more swords. By the time the US got into the war I can't imagine American soldiers carrying swords in the face of machine guns. I do bet that there were probably some contrary US soldiers who took their swords to war though.

I agree that extra ammo is easier to carry than a sabre but I have read a number of time of trench weapons and swords being used early in the war which would be 1914. I just wondered if any of this is reliably referenced. I have never seen a sword or trench club in a WWI combat photgraph that I can remember. Here is an exert from a web page and there were other similar ones. I just wonder about the sources. I have 2 old books of WWI photgraphs. I look through them specifically for swords and trench clubs. My Dad was a glider rider and paratroopere in WWII and thought a carbine bayonet was too big of a knife to carry. He said he did not want to get that close but had some Gurka's doing recon that would throw away their carbines and use their knives. He said "they were too little to carry an M1 rifle but were not too little to use those curved knives." They finally stopped giving them guns.

 

The Napoleonic wars saw constant use of the saber with columns of thousands of magnificent cavalrymen slashing at squares of infantry with little effect. The six hundred men of the British light brigade barely caused a change in the mood in the Russian lines with their sabers in 1854 while taking catastrophic casualties themselves. During the US Civil war the very successful confederate cavalry usually carried no sabers while the Union horse soldiers rarely if ever had a chance to use theirs. A Civil War soldier had a better chance of being hit by a minie bullet than he would being cut by the bayonet or the sword. In fact, wounds from these "cutting" weapons were extremely rare accounting for only 2% or so of the total wounds treated by surgeons. In 1876 Gen. George Custer ordered the 7th Calvary troopers to leave their sabers at base before they rode to their deaths at Little Big Horn. Sword use in world war one and two, by Russian Cossacks, German Uhlans, British lancers and French cuirassiers were equally disappointing and even foolhardy. The first casualty inflicted by the British army in Europe during WWI occurred when Captain Charles Hornby of the 4th Royal Irish Dragoon Guards killed a German uhlan with his sabre. He did so when his troop charged some German cavalry near Casteau on the morning of August 22 1914. The cavalry's use of the sword became a memory once vehicles replaced horses, although records do exist of swords being used in combat by both axis and allied cavalry on the eastern front in world war two as well as by Japanese officers in the pacific.

[M60 Driver]

Well this pinned topic title pretty much sums up my question. The Pacific Northwest is not know for its wealth of Civil War historians and collectors. But my pals down the street have asked me to research this sword. I believe a model 1860, made or imported by Horstmann. Anything more specific someone might be able to add? Any ball park on value?

[M60 Driver]

A few more pics

[M60 Driver]

one more

[Spathologist]

Not an expert, but it sure looks like a officers model 1840....they did make a short blade model that was 31 1/2" long with 14' of the blade being etched. That drag on the scabbard matches p218 of Thillmann's Civil War Cavalry and Artillery Sabers."

 

Can you give a reference for the short blade model? I have a blade exactly as you describe, but paired with a M1872 hilt. I know it's a hybrid/put-together, I just couldn't figure out what the original blade went to...too small for a full-size M1840...

[316th FS 324th FG]

Okay, have read this and think what I have here is an M1840 Cavalry. But, plain blade with no etchings and the only mark I can find is on the guard - an OM in a circle, or CM.

 

Blade seems to be marked with a date - 1851 or 1861. Hard to see.

 

Obviously the scabbard was painted years ago (my grandfather gave this to me 30 years ago with no info). The handle is wood, wrapped in twine, painted gold. Handle and guard come off quite easily, not sure how to fix it.

 

Anyhelp id'ing it would be appreciated.

[316th FS 324th FG]

Here is the blade marking

[316th FS 324th FG]

And the guard with marking

[316th FS 324th FG]

And the guard with marking

 

Any help on this one?

 

Thanks

 

Doug

[Spathologist]

The Civil War-era sabers are outside my field, but when I saw the date on the blade (I think it's 1861) it reminded me immediately of the C. Morel saber that Mike McWatters has on his site. I went and looked, and the marking would be wrong.

 

A multitude of resalers sold sabers made by many manufactories, and many of those sabers have no markings at all. Unless someone can identify that mark in the guard, the source of your saber might well remain a mystery.

[SARGE]

Doug,

 

As Varangian says, there were quite a few sword makers and retailers during the Civil War so it is hard to determine who actually made your sword. The marking on your guard is a casting mark and may not actually tell us who assembled or sold the sword. The mark does not ring a bell with me.

 

Generally speaking, if the back of your blade is flat it is a heavy cavalry sabre. If it is rounded it is a light cavalry sabre. The grip is certainly of the heavy cavalry style and that is what it appears to be to me. If the black and gold paint is old it may have been put there by one of the CW veterans organizations to hang in their meeting hall as they tended to do that. Before I removed it I would try to determine how old the paint might be.

[316th FS 324th FG]

Sarge and Varangian,

 

Thanks for the input. I will keep my eyes peeled for more info, but for now, I will likely hang it on the wall at home.

 

Doug

[relicranger]

Beautiful Sword

[GetSome!!!]

Just came across this thread, here is a link to pictures of my European import, a Kirshbaum and Cie Civil War Model 1840 sword / saber.

 

 

Click here to see Super Hi-Res pics of Model 1840

 

 

They may take a bit to load, but there are a lot of good close ups and they will give those who are unfamiliar a good idea what a fairly unmolested Imported model 1840 sword and correct scabbard look like.

 

 

Here are a couple low res pics

 

 

 

 

I currently have this sword up for auction on Ebay.

 

Not sure if it is within forum rules to link to E bay auctions, so I wont.

 

I would of put it up here for sale first, but I don't have the needed 50 posts to sell items on this forum.