ccmax Posted February 3, 2008 Share #1 Posted February 3, 2008 Photos of the recently acquired bayonet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ccmax Posted February 3, 2008 Author Share #2 Posted February 3, 2008 . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ccmax Posted February 3, 2008 Author Share #3 Posted February 3, 2008 A happy family. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ccmax Posted February 3, 2008 Author Share #4 Posted February 3, 2008 Two cut downs from WWI (dated 1906 and 1918) and two made during WWII. Now looking for a cut down with wooden grips. I regret selling a really mint UC some years ago and now I'm looking for an identical one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Robinson Posted February 5, 2008 Share #5 Posted February 5, 2008 Two cut downs from WWI (dated 1906 and 1918) and two made during WWII. Now looking for a cut down with wooden grips. I regret selling a really mint UC some years ago and now I'm looking for an identical one. The two bayonets on the right appear to be factory made 10" M1s and not "cutdowns". "AFH" did make 16" M1905's with those brown grips, mostly in 1942, but finding an original 10" "AFH" M1 with brown grips is a nice find. Greg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BEAST Posted February 5, 2008 Share #6 Posted February 5, 2008 Why the brown grips? Many years ago, I was told that the brown grips were for the Navy. Is that just an "urban legend"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Robinson Posted February 5, 2008 Share #7 Posted February 5, 2008 Why the brown grips? Many years ago, I was told that the brown grips were for the Navy. Is that just an "urban legend"? Never heard of that one before. The M1 bayonet was purchased through Army ordnance so they're all made to the same specifications. The reddish brown grips were something American Fork and Hoe chose to use on some of their production and apparently the military didn't object. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bayonetman Posted February 5, 2008 Share #8 Posted February 5, 2008 Why the brown grips? Many years ago, I was told that the brown grips were for the Navy. Is that just an "urban legend"? Yes, that is an "Urban Myth": Here are the facts. Experiments had been made with plastic grip materials beginning in late 1941, and by April 1942 it had been determined that the grip material would be "a material similar to Durez No. 1905 with Rogers Board insert" (from United States Army Edged Weapons Report 1917-1945). Durez is a brand name of Phenol-Formaldehyde resin similar to Bakelite. Shortly afterward (June 29, 1942) this specification was written to include other similar thermoplastic resins as Plastic Bayonet Grips, Grade B of SXS-103 Phenolic-Molded Shapes for Small Arms Components. This material is often generically called Bakelite, although that is a brand name rather than a chemical name. The color chosen was black as it was the least expensive and easiest to maintain color consistency. These grips were adopted prior to actual deliveries beginning on the M1905 bayonets in 1942 and were specified for use on these bayonets. Although it is not impossible that walnut grips were used on very early production of the M1905, it must be considered unlikely that any significant quanitity were delivered with wood grips. As this resin was expected to at times be in short supply, tests continued to be conducted of other plastic materials at Springfield Armory. Cellulose Acetate Butyrate (commonly called CAB) was allowed as an alternative material. The normal color for this material was a reddish brown. Production of this product seems to have been entirely by Columbus Plastics Products of Columbus, Ohio and most of their production was used by American Fork and Hoe. After some time in field use, it was reported that CAB was not resistant to the solvents used to degrease the bayonets in the field and would soften and partially dissolve the grips. About 100,000 CAB grips were manufactured before they were discontinued due to this problem in April 1943. From available evidence, it appears that most of these grips were used by AFH, with possibly some small amounts going to other makers. According to the edged weapons report quoted above, "Except for the disruption of production that would ensue for about one month while American Fork and Hoe Company was arranging for procurement of the other type of plastic, there was no reason for the continuing of cellulose acetate grips." Use of the CAB grips by AFH ended at about the time that production of the M1905 bayonet ceased and M1 bayonet production began. Due to the lack of solvent resistance, many brown grips were replaced by black Bakelite when the M1905 bayonets were shortened, but in limited cases the brown grips were used on the shortened bayonets, including on makers other than AFH. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2ad82recon Posted February 5, 2008 Share #9 Posted February 5, 2008 Thanks Gary..was it only AFH that used brown grips as my M1942/M1905 long bayonet by UFH has brown grips also. So if AFH only made them then mine must have gone through a rebuild at some stage ? Kind regards Lloyd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Robinson Posted February 5, 2008 Share #10 Posted February 5, 2008 Thanks Gary..was it only AFH that used brown grips as my M1942/M1905 long bayonet by UFH has brown grips also.So if AFH only made them then mine must have gone through a rebuild at some stage ? Kind regards Lloyd Lloyd Unless your UFH bayonet shows other signs of being refinished I'd say the grips were original. You'll notice that Gary said "most of their production was used by American Fork and Hoe" and not "all their production". I've heard of those grips being seen on other makers although it's a rare occurance with the exception of production by Wilde Tool which used a similar reddish brown grips on their M1905's. Greg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2ad82recon Posted February 5, 2008 Share #11 Posted February 5, 2008 Hi mate how are you ?.....my UFH does have the crossed cannons cartouche on the crossguard on it also...so does that mean it went through a rebuild ? Gonna have to start posting up some pictures...... Regards Limey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Robinson Posted February 5, 2008 Share #12 Posted February 5, 2008 Hi mate how are you ?.....my UFH does have the crossed cannons cartouche on the crossguard on it also...so does that mean it went through a rebuild ? Gonna have to start posting up some pictures...... Regards Limey Hey Limey Not sure about a cross cannon ordnance stamp on the guard. I have seen that stamp on the blade before and in that case it's not a rebuild mark. I'm just not sure about this.......Maybe Gary will drop in soon and help us out. Greg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2ad82recon Posted February 5, 2008 Share #13 Posted February 5, 2008 I agree Greg he is the Bayonet "man".... Cesar nice looking collection......by the way i too have all 5 types Long M1905/M1910 scabbard.......Long M1905/M1942 in Fibre scabbard and all versions of M1/M1905E1 (spear point,bowie point etc) will have to drag them out. Regards Lloyd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ponyradish Posted February 5, 2008 Share #14 Posted February 5, 2008 I agree Greg he is the Bayonet "man"....Here is one of many of my M1 bayonets.This is a brown gripped OL 1943.This one is stone mint unissued.Should pop a few eyeballs.Pony Cesar nice looking collection......by the way i too have all 5 types Long M1905/M1910 scabbard.......Long M1905/M1942 in Fibre scabbard and all versions of M1/M1905E1 (spear point,bowie point etc) will have to drag them out. Regards Here is one of many of my WW2 bayo's.This is a BROWN gripped OL 1942.Stone mint unissued.That should pop a few eyeballs.(Grips photo black but they are a rich brown)Pony. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2ad82recon Posted February 5, 2008 Share #15 Posted February 5, 2008 WOW ! Pony what a beauty......thanks for sharing Regards Lloyd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Robinson Posted February 5, 2008 Share #16 Posted February 5, 2008 I just dug out my unissued "OL 1943" M1 (not a cutdown) and it has black grips. Brown would have been nice but with those being the rarest of the M1's I'm glad to have one at all. greg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ccmax Posted February 6, 2008 Author Share #17 Posted February 6, 2008 Thanks guys. Two of mine are cutdowns and the two on the right are WWII production. The 16" one is dated 1943. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bayonetman Posted February 6, 2008 Share #18 Posted February 6, 2008 Hey Limey Not sure about a cross cannon ordnance stamp on the guard. I have seen that stamp on the blade before and in that case it's not a rebuild mark. I'm just not sure about this.......Maybe Gary will drop in soon and help us out. Greg The Ordnance Shell and Flame mark on the guard and blade are found mostly on UFH early production, and is believed to indicate Ordnance inspection of that part. It didn't last too long because it apparently took too much time or too many inspectors. The Ordnance Escutcheon (wheel) is found on the right side of the blade and represented Ordnance final inspection, and it also did not last more than a few months - in fact, some of the makers don't show it at all. Every maker was a little different and an experienced collector can usually tell which maker without looking at the maker mark. Quantity requirements required as many shortcuts as could be done without compromising the use of the bayonet - it didn't have to be "pretty". Final inspection marking went by the wayside early. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Robinson Posted February 6, 2008 Share #19 Posted February 6, 2008 The Ordnance Shell and Flame mark on the guard and blade are found mostly on UFH early production, and is believed to indicate Ordnance inspection of that part. It didn't last too long because it apparently took too much time or too many inspectors. I've seen the ordnance shell and flame stamp on guards before but never the ordnance crossed cannons stamp. I wonder if Lloyd was mistaken on this? There wouldn't be enough room on the guard for such a stamp. I own a Rock Island Arsenal Model of 1905 bayonet dated 1918 which has the shell and flame stamp plus a two digit numeric code stamped on the guard. I used to call it a rebuild mark but now believe it was an inspection stamp. Greg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
notinfringed Posted February 6, 2008 Share #20 Posted February 6, 2008 Two cut downs from WWI (dated 1906 and 1918) and two made during WWII. Now looking for a cut down with wooden grips. I regret selling a really mint UC some years ago and now I'm looking for an identical one. I don't mean to throw you guys off subject, but how rare are the cut downs with wood handlles? I ask, because the only m-1 I have is a cut down with wood handles. Levi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ccmax Posted February 6, 2008 Author Share #21 Posted February 6, 2008 I'm not sure how rare they are. But from my experience there are several collectors who aren't too fond of the cut down bayonets from WWI that were used during WWII. I think they are very cool. The last I saw for sale with walnut grips was dated 1907 with a bowie tip. That was about 2 or 3 years ago and since then I haven't found a similar one here in Brazil. Very nice bayonet Levi. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Robinson Posted February 6, 2008 Share #22 Posted February 6, 2008 I don't mean to throw you guys off subject, but how rare are the cut downs with wood handlles? I ask, because the only m-1 I have is a cut down with wood handles. Levi The "cutdowns" that were made out of US arsenal made M1905's are occasionally seen with their original wooden grips....maybe not exactly rare but very uncommon. I've seen a few over the years and have always wanted one but seems like I was always day late or dollar short to get my hands on it. The "cutdowns" made from early M1905's are the only ones that interest me. Greg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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