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Is this WWII USMC or Army HBT weave?


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#1 tsellati

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 02:35 PM

I am looking at this weave pattern and it looks like standard WWII USMC HBT weave, however it clearly is camo patterned. According to Grunt Gear all USMC camo patterned uniforms were manufactured using the Army HBT weave fabric. Did this only hold true for the P1942 camouflage clothing and not the P1944?

The book also states that "There is no Marine Corps camouflage herringbone twill except some examples made postwar most likely for the movie industry? Is this still the current state of understanding on this matter?

Thanks for the education.

Tim

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Edited by tsellati, 14 August 2012 - 02:37 PM.


#2 Alec

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 03:18 PM

Tim- All examples of original Marine Corps camo I own or have seen in private collections or in the many number of museum archives I went into while researching Grunt Gear all were of the Army style HBT.

If anyone out there has an example of Chevron to Chevron weave of camo that is 100% WWII manufacture I would love to see it so if Grunt Gear reprints I can certainly update my research.

Alec

#3 etienne

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 09:35 PM

I'm not an expert as Alec can be, but I never saw a camo HBT item with the specific USMC weave, even if I had some doubts in the past.

However, I noticed that pictures of camo weaves can be misleading because use and wear can make a legit Army weave pattern seem like a USMC one :think:

#4 'Flage Guy

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 09:44 PM

Sometimes the weave looks different when you hold it at different angles when a good light is present.
The fabric in the photo looks OK to me :think:

#5 tsellati

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Posted 15 August 2012 - 05:50 AM

Here are some additional photos of the fabric. This definitely appears to be the USMC HBT weave to me and not the Army pattern. I suspect this 'frog skin' camo shirt may be of post-war manufacture, perhaps for use in a movie.

Tim

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#6 tsellati

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Posted 15 August 2012 - 05:51 AM

Here's another -

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#7 tsellati

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Posted 15 August 2012 - 05:51 AM

And another -

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#8 'Flage Guy

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Posted 15 August 2012 - 10:22 AM

Here is a close-up of a One-Piece Jungle Suit, made at H.D. Lee Mercantile in 1943; the 2 chevrons are easy to see here...

Suit__1_Piece__Jungle__O__Connor__7_USMF.jpeg

Edited by 'Flage Guy, 15 August 2012 - 10:23 AM.


#9 Alec

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Posted 15 August 2012 - 10:37 AM

Here is a close-up of a One-Piece Jungle Suit, made at H.D. Lee Mercantile in 1943; the 2 chevrons are easy to see here...

Suit__1_Piece__Jungle__O__Connor__7_USMF.jpeg


Could be possible that one run of the P44s were made this variant of the camo material. I checked all of my USMC camo last night again and all is the Army weave though.

#10 tsellati

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Posted 15 August 2012 - 02:47 PM

Here is a close-up of a One-Piece Jungle Suit, made at H.D. Lee Mercantile in 1943; the 2 chevrons are easy to see here...

Suit__1_Piece__Jungle__O__Connor__7_USMF.jpeg


I agree, the two chevrons are easy to see and look a lot like the pattern on the shirt I posted photographs of. And, neither of these two examples of HBT camo weave have that clear straight column of weave between the canted columns as seen in the Army HBT weave.

It may be that the USMC and Army HBT weave examples pictured in Alec's Grunt Gear were unusually stark in their contrasting patterns and well-worn/aged examples are not as starkly different. Alternatively, as Alec suggests above, perhaps a limited run of P44 uniforms were made with this non-Army HBT weave camo variant.

Tim

Edited by tsellati, 15 August 2012 - 02:49 PM.


#11 etienne

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 08:45 AM

Tsellati, on post #5 you can clearly see the Army weave pattern were the Marine Corps buttons are ... I think the wear of your coat is misleading you as it's sometimes difficult to see the special weave but if you compare to a sage green USMC coat, you'll see the difference and there will be no doubt ;)

#12 tsellati

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 06:09 PM

Tsellati, on post #5 you can clearly see the Army weave pattern were the Marine Corps buttons are ... I think the wear of your coat is misleading you as it's sometimes difficult to see the special weave but if you compare to a sage green USMC coat, you'll see the difference and there will be no doubt ;)


Son-of-a-gun, you're right. Now I see the Army HBT weave once you pointed it out to me. The worn/aged appearance of the rest of the shirt certainly does not make it easy to discern the pattern.

On another note, I wish it were my coat, but alas, it is not. It's actually being auctioned on eBay and it appears enough other collectors (more educated than I regarding USMC camo shirts) pegged this one for being original as it's up to $160 with another 2+ days to go. It's just too steep for me now.

Tim

Edited by tsellati, 16 August 2012 - 06:10 PM.


#13 themick

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Posted 18 August 2012 - 10:32 AM

I've posted this before but I'll do it again here because it's a good comparison of the two weaves of HBT cloth. The top one is army weave (taken from a Marine clothing bag) and the bottom is USMC weave (from a P-41 shirt).

Steve

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#14 cbuehler

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Posted 19 January 2013 - 01:28 PM

I too have never seen camo on USMC weave HBT. The suit posted by Flage has the Army weave as well.
If there ever was any camo made on anything other than Army weave, it has yet to be seen.

CB

#15 asianairborne

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Posted 18 May 2014 - 06:23 PM

I recently acquired a US Army made Camo HBT shirt dated 1944. Were these ever in use by the Marines? I was wondering if I could use it on a marine impression.



#16 etienne

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Posted 18 May 2014 - 11:57 PM

I recently acquired a US Army made Camo HBT shirt dated 1944. Were these ever in use by the Marines? I was wondering if I could use it on a marine impression.

 

Hello,

 

the answer is no ... the Marine Corps had specific camo utilities, P42 seen from 1942 until 1944 and then the P44 for the last campaigns.

 

The Marines had Army camo coveralls during the first campaigns, mainly in the Solomon's Islands, mainly seen in artillery and engineers units.

 

Regards, E




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