USMCRECON Posted January 31, 2008 Share #1 Posted January 31, 2008 P acquired these several years ago and I got them relatively cheap from a guy who took them off a rather ratty blouse. Comments/opinions?? Top picture shows front/back of the wings. The middle picture shows a closer view of the front/back and the bottom one is a comparison between this wing and a known repro, which was probably made some time between the early 80s and the mid 90s. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pfrost Posted February 1, 2008 Share #2 Posted February 1, 2008 Hi, I will venture an opinion. To me, they dont look all like WWI vintage wings. It is always hard to tell from photos, but... Patrick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwnorma Posted February 2, 2008 Share #3 Posted February 2, 2008 USMCRECON, I have to agree with Patrick, I think the wings above are Indian or Pakistani made from about 1970 or so. Which unfortunately means that they now have some legitimate age on them. The one thing the Pakistanis have yet to get right, is the "padded" bullion of WW1. Here are some pictures of a legitimate WW1 embroidered wing currently for sale on ebay: The middle picture is the most important. Notice how the bullion is "padded" like a pillow. Most American made bullion wings from the WW1 period exhibit this padding. French made bullion is generally not padded, but is of a completely different style from the American made wings. American wings tend to have a separate shoulder area with large feathers radiating down and out from the shoulder. Often these large feathers are separated with black thread. French wings tend to be similar in shape, but the entire wing is made up of small feathers and there is usually no distinct shoulder area. The wing in the first post has the separate shoulder, radiating large feathers, and black separating threads. Thus it can be said to be a copy of the "American style." However, it lacks the padding that is the key indicator of this type. The final indictment of the wing is the black cloth glued to the rear. WW1 bullion wings were intended to be sewn to the uniform, or as in the case of the ebay wings, were sewn to a pin-back. As the wings were generally to be sewn down, there was no reason to affix a protective cover on the back. The protective backing exhibited on the first wing is normally indicative of manufacture in Pakistan or india and can also be seen on Pakistani or Indian copies of post WW2 era bullion Shoulder Sleeve Insignia. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BEAST Posted February 5, 2008 Share #4 Posted February 5, 2008 OK guys, let's get your opinion on these. First, WWI Pilot's wings. When I put them under a UV light, I get a little glow on the back where the threads bunch together. Other than that, nothing. Still I don't have a great feeling on these. They are old, at least older, possibly made as a reunion piece. Still, it would be nice if they were real. Next WWI observer wing. No glow at all from these. These I feel better about than the Pilot's, but I would like some second opinions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwnorma Posted February 5, 2008 Share #5 Posted February 5, 2008 Beast, On the surface, the pilot wings look better to me than the observer wings. Actually, I used to have an identical observer wing and when I got it, it was sewn on a post-1918, M1902, Chemical Warfare, Enlisted Mans Dress Blues In fact, I gave them away to someone, who wanted them as an example of a fake wing. It is even possible although improbable that these are those wings (I don't know if he still has them). The pilot's wings are another story. They exhibit good points and bad. the lower half of the shield looks very good, notice how it is split into stripes with two different types of bullion. Also the individual feathers in the "shoulders" of the wings look very good. On the other hand, the stars on the shield, and the large feathers, separated by threads on the wings look a little bit crude, especially when compared to the lower part of the shield and the shoulders. Finally the US on this wing looks very good. It would be easier to tell if you would take an oblique picture like the middle one in the post above. This makes it easier to gauge the thickness of the bullion. Chris OK guys, let's get your opinion on these. First, WWI Pilot's wings. When I put them under a UV light, I get a little glow on the back where the threads bunch together. Other than that, nothing. Still I don't have a great feeling on these. They are old, at least older, possibly made as a reunion piece. Still, it would be nice if they were real. <attachment snipped> Next WWI observer wing. No glow at all from these. These I feel better about than the Pilot's, but I would like some second opinions. <attachment snipped> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Ragan Posted February 6, 2008 Share #6 Posted February 6, 2008 In J. Duncan Campbell's book on early Army wings, he noted that as early as the 1920's, reproduction insignia including wings were being sold via ads in the back of veterans magazines. These were to be replacements for lost or damaged insignia which was often used on uniforms worm by vets for special occasions such as Memorial Day and Armistice Day. Yes, the waters were muddied long ago and we have repos that are now over 80 years old in some cases. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Cain Posted February 7, 2008 Share #7 Posted February 7, 2008 Hi Beast, I don't like either wing but that is based on the pictures which aren't that great and frankly authenticating anything based on photo's is fraught with problems. That being said the bullion wire is too coppery and that is allways a big flag for me. This is a wing in my collection that is still on the uniform of the pilot who recieved it in 1918 so he didn't make it overseas. Forgive my poor pictures but it will illustrate some of the points that Chris made. Nice thick padding etc. Gary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Cain Posted February 7, 2008 Share #8 Posted February 7, 2008 2 Hi Beast, I don't like either wing but that is based on the pictures which aren't that great and frankly authenticating anything based on photo's is fraught with problems. That being said the bullion wire is too coppery and that is allways a big flag for me. This is a wing in my collection that is still on the uniform of the pilot who recieved it in 1918 so he didn't make it overseas. Forgive my poor pictures but it will illustrate some of the points that Chris made. Nice thick padding etc. Gary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Cain Posted February 7, 2008 Share #9 Posted February 7, 2008 3 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwnorma Posted February 7, 2008 Share #10 Posted February 7, 2008 Gary, That is a textbook case of what an American Wing should look like. Thanks for sharing! Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Cain Posted February 7, 2008 Share #11 Posted February 7, 2008 Hi Chris, Thank you. Also take a look at how the backing has changed color. When the backing material is black that is also a warning sign. The black will fade to a darker purpleish color over time. Gary Gary, That is a textbook case of what an American Wing should look like. Thanks for sharing! Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BEAST Posted February 7, 2008 Share #12 Posted February 7, 2008 Guys, Thanks for posting your thoughts and examples. I will take some better photos of these wings and repost them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BEAST Posted February 8, 2008 Share #13 Posted February 8, 2008 Ok here a few more shots. I did not try to edit these or make them sharper, so hopefully the original detail of the wings will come through. One thing I noticed, neither of the wings have that padded look like on ethe other wings shown here.. They both seem to be more flat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwnorma Posted February 8, 2008 Share #14 Posted February 8, 2008 Beast, To be honest, it is hard to make a call one way or the other on the pilot wings. They have both good points and bad. The observer wing is a reproduction. If I had the pilot wing, I would keep the them in the could be; but probably aren't pile. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BEAST Posted February 8, 2008 Share #15 Posted February 8, 2008 Beast, To be honest, it is hard to make a call one way or the other on the pilot wings. They have both good points and bad. The observer wing is a reproduction. If I had the pilot wing, I would keep the them in the could be; but probably aren't pile. Chris Chris, Thanks for the info. It's good to know more about the pilot's wings as I didn't feel good about those at all. I will keep both of these wings as they are good for use as examples at public displays. Looks like I need to do more homework if I want to buy more of these! The padding on the originals that have been posted seems to be one of the easier clues to see. It's been helpful seeing the examples (both good and bad). Thanks again to all who provided input, I appreciate everyone's help! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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