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EBAY auction: Pre WW1 era USMC Marine Officers Bell Crown Visor Hat AKA: Barracks Cover for the Blues


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#1 teufelhunde.ret

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Posted 31 January 2008 - 03:02 AM

Friends, when this popped up earlier this week I saw an opportunity to acquire a very unique and seldom seen outside important collections... this cover and EGA. For my interests anyway, its more about the EGA than the barracks cover as most know.

http://cgi.ebay.com/...I...A:IT&ih=009

Here is a picture of the EGA from the auction:
74e5_1.jpg

Well I emailed the seller asking for a picture of the rear of the emblem, the reply: Hi and thanks for the inquiry. I apologize for the quality of the pictures, my camera is not the greatest. I looked inside the hat and honestly I don't know how the badge comes off. Also it seems like it has been on there a while and I don't want to risk doing any damage to the emblem or the hat itself. If there is any other questions I can answer, please feel free to ask. Thanks.

We have a photo of a identical emblem in our reference section: http://www.usmilitar...?showtopic=9806
DSC03306.jpg

And this is were my cautious nature comes to play, in viewing the EGA posted at the auction page the EGA sits very flat to the cover with no exposed areas to see. A true period pinback of the period as shown below would not sit like this (IMHO) on the cover:
DSC03325.jpg

Would also like your comments on the cover in general, appears to be absolutely pristine... I'm not certain about the scrambled egg's if these were correct for the period or what grade these would have represented?

Edited by teufelhunde.ret, 31 January 2008 - 03:03 AM.


#2 ADMIN

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Posted 31 January 2008 - 10:56 AM

IMO something's not right. I'm not an EGA expert in any way, so take my opinion for what little its worth.

The EGA in the auction picture appears to be of a lesser quality than the one in the EGA reference section. In particular, the top ring of the anchor on the EGA from the auction doesn't appear to be circular or symetrical. That really sits wrong with me.

Also, a pinback would be pretty easy to see on a hat like that without damaging it. It doesn't appear to sit on the visor like a pinback EGA would.

#3 teufelhunde.ret

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Posted 31 January 2008 - 11:07 AM

I have the same mis-givings, as the strike of the die on the barracks cover up for auction does not hold the same level of detail (esp the edge of globe and anchor stock) as our reference EGA.

In looking at the auction photo again... I'm no fabric expert... (we need someone who knows) the fabric appears to be of a modern weave nature and the stitching extremely neat, not of the type of stitching seen on a machine from 100 years ago. Need help here!!!!!!!!!!

#4 bobgee

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Posted 31 January 2008 - 01:19 PM

I asked the same question about the EGA and received exactly the same answer. There has been something bothering me about this hat since I first saw it. Seems I was concentrating on the badge. The "Morry Luxenberg" label was bothering me as well because I don't seem to think of that firm as a WWI or earlier uniform vendor but I sure could be wrong about that. Looking again at the pics it struck me what was missing! There is NO MOHAIR band on the cover as it required for Officers Only by USMC regs, and have been all through the 20th Century. Also the chinstrap looks to be rounded as opposed to flat but that could be just me. I'm thinking that this could be a theatrical piece of headgear. Pic 1 is the EBay Hat - Pic 2 is the Hat in my collection - Pic 3 is the Hat in my collection - Pic 4 is the EBay Hat. Just my thoughts. I'm not bidding on this item. Semper Fi - Bobee

EBay_Hat_2.jpg
M1910_USMC_Hat_RBG_2.jpg
M1910_USMC_Hat_RBG_1.jpg
EBay_Hat_1.jpg

Edited by craig_pickrall, 02 February 2008 - 01:59 PM.


#5 cbuehler

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Posted 31 January 2008 - 02:03 PM

That is not a Marine Corps officer barracks hat and it is not from ww1 era either. It is some type of band, civilian or other hat. I dont know about the ega, but the hat is a no brainer.

CB

#6 squidres

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Posted 31 January 2008 - 02:13 PM

I have access to an original hat with the braid, and there is absolutely no comparison. This piece is a fabrication.

1) The chinstrap is wrong. The original is a deeper sold toned and wider.

2) Fabric is modern

3) Liner is cut out of a WW2/korea hat

4) Wrong bullion on brow. The original is deep toned high grade. The comment of the other individual with me was "Hollywood all the way. " The eagle is a wire back with colored continents, incorrect for this type of hat.

Basically, BIG FAKE

#7 Dirk

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Posted 31 January 2008 - 02:26 PM

Darrell: Just saw this this thread and agree with the above comments....don't like the construction, weave, or the EGA....feels like a fire chief's hat now converted to a Marine Officers hat....on the positive side the seller has a nice Army Navy Union medal that matches the one on our e-stand. Sad that someone is going to loss big money on this hat...very sad...

Edited by Dirk, 31 January 2008 - 02:56 PM.


#8 Brig

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Posted 31 January 2008 - 02:41 PM

maybe a train conductor cover?

I saw that auction, as well. By far not as advanced a collector as most of you, but it struck me as wrong for some reason too, so I didn't bother bookmarking it

#9 Dirk

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Posted 31 January 2008 - 03:10 PM

It strikes me as odd that this hat is offered as "AS IS" but nothing else the seller is selling?

#10 usmcaviator

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Posted 31 January 2008 - 08:50 PM

This hat is a put together and the EGA has been painted recently. Makes me wish I never posted pictures of my real one that Darrell re-posted earlier on this thread. There have been quite a number of these put together caps recently on E-bay. One sold about a month ago, it was a train conductors cap with a 1940's stitched quatrefoil on the top. The quatrefoil on this hat has been added as well, that is the reason for the "frayed" appearance as the seller puts it. The chinstrap is an Army one that has been colored with a red stripe, the bullion field grade on the bill is much to large for USMC (if the army had a blue dress cap, I'd suspect this is one). The cap is wrong all over, no mohair band, and the kicker is to look at his other USMC auctions....all bad. That canteen is laughable (but aged and made to fool a novice), and the patch is just plain ugly.


Mike

#11 Bob Hudson

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Posted 31 January 2008 - 09:35 PM

This hat is a put together and the EGA has been painted recently. Makes me wish I never posted pictures of my real one that Darrell re-posted earlier on this thread. There have been quite a number of these put together caps recently on E-bay.


No Mike it's not photos of the real thing that cause people to buy poor imitations. In fact, photos such as yours do a service for those who have the half a brain needed to fealize homework should be done before bidding on something like this. Anyone who buys something like this from a guy with a 95% feedback rating is the embodiment of "A fool and his money are soon parted."

#12 teufelhunde.ret

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Posted 01 February 2008 - 02:55 AM

No Mike it's not photos of the real thing that cause people to buy poor imitations. In fact, photos such as yours do a service for those who have the half a brain needed to fealize homework should be done before bidding on something like this. Anyone who buys something like this from a guy with a 95% feedback rating is the embodiment of "A fool and his money are soon parted."


QUITE AGREE, while there has been some here who have a degree of heart-burn over showing "the real deal" and discussing fakes, in the end we will have hopefully outed these fakes and their goods. AND saved allot of innocent, sincere collectors from wasting their bucks. I would be the first to say"been there, done that" and sadly may get snookered again some day http://www.usmilitar...tyle_emoticons/default/crying.gif s/f Darrell

#13 usmcaviator

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Posted 01 February 2008 - 09:23 AM

No Mike it's not photos of the real thing that cause people to buy poor imitations. In fact, photos such as yours do a service for those who have the half a brain needed to fealize homework should be done before bidding on something like this. Anyone who buys something like this from a guy with a 95% feedback rating is the embodiment of "A fool and his money are soon parted."

No one but a few collectors even knew that officer version of the EGA even existed, and now I have seen no less than 4 fakes of it, 2 of which were on E-bay, that have surfaced since those photos were placed. Coincidence? Maybe. I say it is no coincidence. While someone may not do their homework and get had on a fake piece, the bottom line is we are educating the fakers as well and they are getting better.

Mike

#14 teufelhunde.ret

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Posted 01 February 2008 - 09:58 AM

Mike, I hear you and your point is a valid reason for concern... a good education is costly, no education is costlier ;)

#15 ADMIN

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Posted 02 February 2008 - 07:17 AM

Has anyone notified the seller of this piece that it is bad and cited this thread?

By the way, for future reference, here is the description:

Up for auction today is this great looking piece I purchased at an estate auction this past summer. I was told by a collector friend of mine that I showed it to that this is a United States Marine Corp Officers dress visor cap likely dating from around the turn of the century, early 1900s era. The ornate woven wire on the brim, which not all of them had, was to represent a very high ranking officer, perhaps even a General! The cap has a very interesting and fancy braided knot on top of the crown as well as a gold chinstrap with a red strip accross the front. The "topknot" appears to have some minor fraying on some of the edges. There are domed brass buttons on either side of the chinstrap which depict an eagle clutching an anchor and stars. On the front of the cap is a very early looking EGA (eagle, globe, and anchor) badge which is two tone silver and bronze. The interior lining and sweatband are present as well as a diamond shaped maker's label which reads "Morry Luxenberg, Military Outfitters, New York and London, England." There are some dark stains to areas of the interior liner material and the sweatband is cracked and torn in one area with a small section of it missing. The stains are likely from the type of greasy men's hair dressing which was popular at the turn of the century. According to what I could find out online, at this time in history, just prior to WW1, the Marine Corp was extremely small, under 3,000 men, and officer's items dating from this era are quite scarce today. A great and hard to find piece to add to your U.S. Marine Corp or early U.S. Military collection.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
On Jan-29-08 at 15:41:37 PST, seller added the following information:

**Please note that I have tried to describe this piece as thoroughly as possible, but as I mentioned, this is not my area of expertise, I am not a collector and am simply passing on the opinions of a collector friend of mine on an item I purchased at a sale this summer. I very much encourage anyone who has any questions regarding the piece to e-mail me and I will be happy to do my best to fully answer them to the best of my ability, but please do so before the end of the auction as this piece is being sold "as is." Thanks and happy bidding.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
On Jan-31-08 at 13:04:01 PST, seller added the following information:

***To those buyers interested in this piece, I have literally recieved a flood of e-mails concerning it, everything from claims that it is a reproduction, to comments by actual Marines that it should be in a museum, even numerous offers to buy it outright! As I stated above, I am neither an expert in this field or a collector, this is simply an item I bought that I am offering for sale, nothing more, nothing less. So if you have any problems or concerns with this item, please do not bid. It has been honestly described to the best of my ability and is being sold "as Is." Once again, thanks and happy bidding!


#16 ADMIN

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Posted 02 February 2008 - 07:29 AM

I just took a look at the seller's past auctions and it appears that, despite the description, he collects Marine Corp items and particularly items from that period.

His past purchases include:

SAW Era VFW Medal Fob to USMC Marine Officer - Named!!!
http://cgi.ebay.com/...em=120210768308

Military Troop B 1 Cross Sword Medal & Pin Free Ship
http://cgi.ebay.com/...em=320208402216

Old hand stiched CLOTH MILITARY PATCH
http://cgi.ebay.com/...em=300191051133

Buttons and Wool Belt from 1960's Marine Jacket Metal
http://cgi.ebay.com/...em=180208939699

WW1 MARINE PHOTO POSTCARD
http://cgi.ebay.com/...em=180186728667

30s China Marine Soochow Creek Medal Book Reference
http://cgi.ebay.com/...em=320191218581

USMC Marine Battle Soochow Creek Medal Ribbon Bar
http://cgi.ebay.com/...em=320162588660

#17 Bob Hudson

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Posted 02 February 2008 - 07:38 AM

Sad to say but the seller of this may be a member of this forum (:

I just looked at this seller's other current and past sales and it's pretty much all militaria, except for one interesting listing when he sold some fireman's hats and suggested they could be made into imitation USMC bell and crown hats:

" Up for auction today is the great lot of 8 vintage firefighter dress hats. These hats are in good condition, just dirty from long storage, and are all size 6 3/4 with the exception of one (the older one with the red liner) which is size 7. These hats are all dated "1964" and were made by Wentworth, a model called the "Headmaster." The one hat by itself (again the one with the red liner) was made by the "Russell Uniform Company, Lexington Ave, New York" and appears to be much older, likely from the 40s - 50s. These hats would be great for a vintage firefighter display or for reenactors or collectors portraying (reenacting) WW1 era U.S. Marines, as these hats are very similar to the "bell crown" hats the Marines wore at the turn of the Century, just missing the EGA, especially the rare white type. Marines of this period wore white covers on their blue dress hats when on duty in the tropics or assigned to a ship's Marine detachment and these hats are very rare today. A great and interesting group to add to your collection!! "

devilphoto1.jpg

#18 teufelhunde.ret

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Posted 02 February 2008 - 07:39 AM

Not that I am aware of http://www.usmilitar...tyle_emoticons/default/think.gif To late to notify ebay that it is a repro and wrongly listed, impossible to inform bidders... because of the way bidders are masked nowadays. I am just plained surprised in the way the seller has handled "the flood of emails"... why not post more pictures. Is it not the way to ensure the validity of his claims and get a higher price... or perhaps mask what he already knows, a repro.

Perhaps... the winning bidder ought to be notified right after it closes with a link to this thread to make his own judgment? http://www.usmilitar...tyle_emoticons/default/thumbsup.gif

#19 ADMIN

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Posted 02 February 2008 - 07:39 AM

Well, I thought I recognized a couple of those pieces. It appears the seller germannpinkk is USMF member DevilDan1900.

Here is the "SAW Era VFW Medal Fob to USMC Marine Officer - Named!!!" watch fob that germannpinkk purchased:
http://www.usmilitar...d...c=14712&hl=

And here is the "Military Troop B 1 Cross Sword Medal & Pin Free Ship" pin that germannpinkk purchased:
http://www.usmilitar...d...c=14783&hl=

I've forwarded him along to this thread. Hopefully he will see it in time to end the auction.

#20 ADMIN

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Posted 02 February 2008 - 07:41 AM

Sad to say but the seller of this may be a member of this forum (:

I just looked at this seller's other current and past sales and it's pretty much all militaria, except for one interesting listing when he sold some fireman's hats and suggested they could be made into imitation USMC bell and crown hats:

" Up for auction today is the great lot of 8 vintage firefighter dress hats. These hats are in good condition, just dirty from long storage, and are all size 6 3/4 with the exception of one (the older one with the red liner) which is size 7. These hats are all dated "1964" and were made by Wentworth, a model called the "Headmaster." The one hat by itself (again the one with the red liner) was made by the "Russell Uniform Company, Lexington Ave, New York" and appears to be much older, likely from the 40s - 50s. These hats would be great for a vintage firefighter display or for reenactors or collectors portraying (reenacting) WW1 era U.S. Marines, as these hats are very similar to the "bell crown" hats the Marines wore at the turn of the Century, just missing the EGA, especially the rare white type. Marines of this period wore white covers on their blue dress hats when on duty in the tropics or assigned to a ship's Marine detachment and these hats are very rare today. A great and interesting group to add to your collection!! "

devilphoto1.jpg


Hadn't looked there yet Bob, but that's not good.

#21 bobgee

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Posted 02 February 2008 - 07:42 AM

Hmmmmm? Well the consensus is the Hat is crap! Wish we could tell the EBay bidder! The seller would be doing the right thing if he pulled it. BTW Wasn't that Littleton W.T. Waller Fob posted here on the forum recently? Have to try to find it.
S/F.....Bobgee

#22 ADMIN

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Posted 02 February 2008 - 07:43 AM

Here's the link to the auction Bob posted:

http://cgi.ebay.com/...1QQcmdZViewItem

#23 ADMIN

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Posted 02 February 2008 - 07:44 AM

Hmmmmm? Well the consensus is the Hat is crap! Wish we could tell the EBay bidder! The seller would be doing the right thing if he pulled it. BTW Wasn't that Littleton W.T. Waller Fob posted here on the forum recently? Have to try to find it.
S/F.....Bobgee


I just posted it above... so read my above post #19. I put the links there too.

#24 ADMIN

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Posted 02 February 2008 - 07:51 AM

Here are some of germannpinkk's past sales of items he (as DevilDan1900) posted here:

EBAY: United Spanish American War Veterans Officer's Medal
http://cgi.ebay.com/...1QQcmdZViewItem

USMF: Spanish American War Veterans Officer's Medal, (Colonel's), MINTY!!
http://www.usmilitar...showtopic=14170


------------------------------------------------------------

EBAY: Spanish American War Veterans USWV Medal MINT Numbered
http://cgi.ebay.com/...1QQcmdZViewItem

USMF: Spanish American War Veterans Medal, Numbered, MINTY!!!
http://www.usmilitar...showtopic=14173

------------------------------------------------------------

EBAY: 1890s Army Navy Union Medal Marines USMC on Orig Card!
http://cgi.ebay.com/...em=190193586640

USMF: Army - Navy Union Medal on Orig. Sales Card, Metal Arts Made, MINTY!!
http://www.usmilitar...showtopic=14172

--------------------------------------------------------------

EBAY: Orig Numbered U.S. Army Spanish American War Medal MINT
http://cgi.ebay.com/...1QQcmdZViewItem

USMF:Numbered Spanish American War Army Service Medal, Wrap Broach, MINTY!!
http://www.usmilitar...showtopic=14168

--------------------------------------------------------------

#25 Bob Hudson

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Posted 02 February 2008 - 08:03 AM

Well, I thought I recognized a couple of those pieces. It appears the seller germannpinkk is USMF member DevilDan1900.

Here is the "SAW Era VFW Medal Fob to USMC Marine Officer - Named!!!" watch fob that germannpinkk purchased:
http://www.usmilitar...d...c=14712&hl=

And here is the "Military Troop B 1 Cross Sword Medal & Pin Free Ship" pin that germannpinkk purchased:
http://www.usmilitar...d...c=14783&hl=

I've forwarded him along to this thread. Hopefully he will see it in time to end the auction.


That does not look good - hope he has a reasonable explanation because we would not want anyone on this forum who knowingly scams the collector community.


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