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M1904 PATTERN? - J.R. GAUNT OFFICER'S SERVICE EMBLEM


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#1 GLM *Deceased*

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Posted 29 January 2008 - 07:27 PM

Hi All,

Wanted to share my latest acquisition. What can I say, other than it's a real beauty!

This is what I assume to be the M1904 pattern emblem for officer's service cover. Maybe the M1908 or M1912, depending on who you talk to. Chime in, folks. Which pattern?

A few things I noticed right off is that the eagle, globe and anchor are all one stamped piece with the only applied pieces being the continents, rope and screw post. Where you usually see the screwpost applied to the anchor stock, or in the case of the one-piece stamped "Ellis" emblems, applied to a cross beam between forward and aft sections of the anchor, this screw post is applied directly to the globe, more in line with EM emblems. The hallmark is stamped, not embossed and simply states, J.R. GAUNT & SON - NEW YORK - MADE IN ENGLAND.

Dainty in appearance, it's anything but that. A very sturdy, nicely made emblem.

s/f, Gary

Attached Images

  • GAUNT_FR.jpg
  • GAUNT_REV.jpg
  • GAUNT_REV_CLOSE.jpg
  • GAUNT_EAGLE.jpg


#2 Gary Cain

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Posted 29 January 2008 - 07:43 PM

Hi Gary,

I would assume it's the 1904 pattern but all that aside, that's a BEAUTY! Want to get rid of it?


Gary

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Posted 29 January 2008 - 07:58 PM

Hi Gary,

I would assume it's the 1904 pattern but all that aside, that's a BEAUTY! Want to get rid of it?
Gary


Hi Gary,

My first impression was also 1904, but the later emblems, as in 1908 and 1912 also came without the Gulf Of Mexico cut out. I am leaning towards 1904, though.

Nice try! Talk to my widow when the time comes!

Gary

#4 bobgee

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Posted 30 January 2008 - 08:37 AM

Great Bird, Gary!!!!! I lean towards the '04 pattern as well. Very unusual construction method for an officer's emblem. First I've seen. CONGRATS!
S/F.....Bobgee

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Posted 30 January 2008 - 09:48 PM

Great Bird, Gary!!!!! I lean towards the '04 pattern as well. Very unusual construction method for an officer's emblem. First I've seen. CONGRATS!
S/F.....Bobgee


Thank you, Bob. I'm very happy with it. As we discussed, the one piece stamping is unusual, but not unheard of on officer emblems. The, pardon the expression, early M1904 "Ellis" nicknamed emblems are also one piece stampings, but do not goes as far as having the screw post directly soldered to the globe, so this is also a first for me with this particular screw post attachment style. Very unusual.

Here is the reverse of my avatar emblem, the M1904 pattern "Ellis" type. For those who haven't seen the one piece stamped construction on these beautiful emblems, they are pretty much the same as the Gaunt emblem, other than having the crossbeam for screw post attachment. I am now wondering on this one piece stamping technique if there might be a connection between Gaunt & Son and the "Ellis" named emblems? Thoughts?

s/f, Gary

Attached Images

  • ELLIS_REV.jpg
  • ELLIS_ROLLER.jpg
  • ELLIS_FR.jpg


#6 teufelhunde.ret

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Posted 31 January 2008 - 03:38 AM

Gary...OK, you catch me off guard, flatfooted too. It truly is a handsome emblem and should provoke some thought some good thought (and hopefully) dialog here within this thread (kind of like the early days when the forum started ;) ).

But first you have to share with us how you came by this unique bird?

It general character does challenge one's ability to define a specific period of EGA design, to the period suggested in previous posts. Thus, if in the end of comments to this thread, if it were concluded or determined this emblem fell outside the period you suuggest... that would not be surprising, to me. On perhaps three occasions I've come back to look at the emblem... and each instance noted a specific element of the pattern and configuration the defies some of the accepted or conventional wisdoms. The first of course as you have pointed out the one piece stamping or dies? Second is the hallmark is the size of the anchor ring.... extremely large in proportion the emblem as a whole. An upon reading your post of last evening... eureka!

There is the clue and relationship.

Nonetheless, I keep coming back to the hallmark to guide the dating, and for the life of me I cannot remember (nor can I find in Ref Sec) an EGA w/ identical hallmark (that has been identified to a period in time) nor can I recall when the use of the specific hallmark "J.R. GAUNT & SON - NEW YORK - MADE IN ENGLAND." Another words, when did Gaunt start the N.Y. operation? Can someone help me out here??????

And can you expand on the "Dainty in appearance" .... do you refer to its overall size in comparison to other of the period. What does the roller look like....... Best regards, Darrell

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Posted 31 January 2008 - 04:54 PM

Hi Darrell,

From previous discussions, you already know where I stand on pattern dates and exactly what year an actual emblem was made. Just because an emblem might be of the M1904 pattern, doesn't necessarily mean that the emblem was made anywhere close to the pattern date. There are examples of officer emblems with a possible M1904 pattern connection, but show a much later, as in 1930ish or 1940ish, shellac or shiny finish that aren't seen on earlier emblems. I have always felt that just because a new USMC regulation pattern change, i.e. Gulf cut-out, lat & long lines, type of material used, etc came about, it doesn't necessarily mean that the manufacturer stopped producing an earlier and much more popular type of emblem.

With this Gaunt, it has me scratching my head, as to exactly when it might have been made. My gut feeling is it was made long after the 1904 connection, possibly even into the 1920's. I know allot of people don't like hearing that type of argument :) , but, again, my gut feelings make me believe it might not go as early as 1904. Until we get more proof, or maybe see an attributed emblem in a grouping of this type (with this particular screw post attachment), I'll just say a nice unique earlier emblem.

As for the Gaunt hallmark? I believe I have seen US Army insignia with the New York connection dating from SpanAm up through Vietnam. I'm sure some of the more knowledgeable Gaunt insignia collectors can be more precise.

Here are a couple shots of the roller. It doesn't show too well, but it does have a serrated thumb grip edge.

Also, here are a couple shots bobgee sent me of another Gaunt emblem that was listed on eBay a while back. This one is in it's dress uniform. As you can see, identical bird, anchor, continents, rope fouling, and what appears to be the same roller. The only difference between the dress emblem and my service emblem appears to be the dress being multi-piece construction. They both carry the identical hallmark. If I had known this dress emblem was on eBay, it would have given me good cause to break into my piggy bank to try and put the set together.

s/f, Gary

Attached Images

  • GAUNT__DRESS__REV.jpg
  • GAUNT__DRESS__FR.jpg
  • GAUNT_ROLLER_02.jpg
  • GAUNT_ROLLER_01.jpg


#8 USMCRaiderGirl

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Posted 31 January 2008 - 06:45 PM

..... you lucky dog! http://www.usmilitar...tyle_emoticons/default/jeal0001.gif

#9 GLM *Deceased*

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Posted 01 February 2008 - 03:56 PM

..... you lucky dog! http://www.usmilitar...tyle_emoticons/default/jeal0001.gif


...that's lucky "Devil Dog" Raider Girl! :)

#10 Brig

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Posted 01 February 2008 - 04:08 PM

I love the patina on that dress emblem http://www.usmilitar...tyle_emoticons/default/thumbsup.gif

#11 Dirk

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Posted 01 February 2008 - 04:22 PM

Gary: If that is the one we spoke of several days ago...Very Nice! Congrats

#12 GLM *Deceased*

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Posted 02 February 2008 - 12:35 AM

Gary: If that is the one we spoke of several days ago...Very Nice! Congrats


Thank you, Dirk! Yes, the same one we discussed, and sorry, the early M1900 EM that came with this emblem turned out to be a variation of the others I have, so automatically went into the collection. Next time! :)

Gary

#13 Dirk

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Posted 02 February 2008 - 05:59 AM

Gary: No problem, just glad they found the right home! BTW I've got some copies of images coming your way. Dirk

#14 Jeremiah

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Posted 02 February 2008 - 12:21 PM

Like Darrell I find the large anchor ring and the fact it's slightly off center to be a unique trait. Makes me wonder if the collar emblems would reflect the same configuration. Another feature that is interesting is the small cut out between the legs. That reminds me of Bob's very early dress emblem which is jeweler made. Do the edges of this badge show any hand finishing marks buy chance? Great piece to add to your great collection man!

Jeremiah

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Posted 02 February 2008 - 04:50 PM

Like Darrell I find the large anchor ring and the fact it's slightly off center to be a unique trait. Makes me wonder if the collar emblems would reflect the same configuration. Another feature that is interesting is the small cut out between the legs. That reminds me of Bob's very early dress emblem which is jeweler made. Do the edges of this badge show any hand finishing marks buy chance? Great piece to add to your great collection man!

Jeremiah


Hi Jeremiah,

I think the ring might look off center because of photographic illusion from my camera or the angle of the shot I did. Might possibly be from the fouled rope cluster attached to the ring? Anyway, here is a shot of the ring straight up. It looks centered to me? The size of the ring on this emblem isn't really that unique or unusual, and another reason I'm wondering if the so-called one piece stamped "Ellis" emblem shown above might have some Gaunt & Son connection. Both emblems have almost identical oversized, thin rings.

As would be expected on a stamped emblem, there is definite proof of the burrs from the stamping being filed off of this emblem. I've tried to capture these filings in a few photos. Hope you can see them?

s/f, Gary

Attached Images

  • GAUNT_anchor_ring_01.jpg
  • GAUNT_filing_01.jpg
  • GAUNT_filing_02.jpg
  • GAUNT_filing_03.jpg


#16 GLM *Deceased*

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Posted 02 February 2008 - 05:14 PM

Thanks for the additional information. When I first got photos of this service emblem as a possible trade piece, I shared them with my mentor and master EGA collector, Robert Ensley. He simply stated that these particular Gaunt emblems were by no means "extinct birds," so I automatically assumed that for him to make such a statement, he must have a complete set or sets of cover and collar emblems in this service pattern. True, they are out there. I'm just guessing, but I'd be willing to bet the service collars that go with this cover emblem are beautiful, oversized pieces, probably like the dress counterparts. Thoughts?

Gary

Edited by teufelhunde.ret, 27 March 2008 - 11:50 AM.
quote removal


#17 teufelhunde.ret

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Posted 19 December 2011 - 12:28 PM

This Gaunt emblem sold on ebay Dec 06, 2011 for the princely sum of $1,380.99 Made in England... post war / occupation era? Hallmaks I've not seen before?

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#18 teufelhunde.ret

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Posted 19 December 2011 - 12:29 PM

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#19 teufelhunde.ret

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Posted 19 December 2011 - 12:30 PM

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#20 teufelhunde.ret

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Posted 19 December 2011 - 12:31 PM

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#21 teufelhunde.ret

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Posted 19 January 2012 - 09:03 AM

Fellow forum members:

You are in the Marine Corps EGA reference section. This area is were posts from the Marine Corps, USMC EGA discussion section are moved for permanent retention and education about the history of the Eagle, Globe and Anchor. As time moves forward there maybe additional information the EGA Moderators wish to add or will add to this specific post. We ask for your input as well.

We encourage further comments about this post and its content. In order to do so, you will need to start a new post in the USMC EGA discussion area which is listed in the main page under insignia. And as needed we will be pleased to move any new and or valued information that is derived from your post (and subsequent comments) into this reference area as its own standing post.

Please be advised; posting and or editing is restricted on Eagle, Globe and Anchor emblem threads; to moderator's and forum staff.


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