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Confused about my Dad's CIB

Started by lazyluke , Jul 17 2012 10:04 AM

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#1 lazyluke

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Posted 17 July 2012 - 10:04 AM

My Dad had a CIB from WWII although he was a tanker with the 9th Armored Div. He was a light tank crewman with the 60th Armored Infantry Btn. I got some paperwork from the National personnel records center that show he trained stateside as a cannoneer and then arrived ETO 12/28/44 with a mos of 745 (rifleman). His mos was changed the same day to 1736 (light tank crewman) with the 60th AIB. He went from the rank of Pfc to Sgt within 6 weeks (I'm guessing because of battlefield casualties).

Would he have recieved the CIB because he was attatched to an infantry battalion?

#2 patches

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Posted 17 July 2012 - 03:22 PM

My Dad had a CIB from WWII although he was a tanker with the 9th Armored Div. He was a light tank crewman with the 60th Armored Infantry Btn. I got some paperwork from the National personnel records center that show he trained stateside as a cannoneer and then arrived ETO 12/28/44 with a mos of 745 (rifleman). His mos was changed the same day to 1736 (light tank crewman) with the 60th AIB. He went from the rank of Pfc to Sgt within 6 weeks (I'm guessing because of battlefield casualties).

Would he have recieved the CIB because he was attatched to an infantry battalion?



He may have been despite his MOS been used as a Half Track Driver, the Half Track being the main Armored Fighting Vehical in a WWII Armored Infantry Regiment/ Battalion.

Edited by patches, 17 July 2012 - 03:23 PM.


#3 Jack's Son

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Posted 17 July 2012 - 03:30 PM

He may have been despite his MOS been used as a Half Track Driver, the Half Track being the main Armored Fighting Vehical in a WWII Armored Infantry Regiment/ Battalion.

GOOD POINT, Patches!!

#4 patches

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Posted 17 July 2012 - 08:11 PM

GOOD POINT, Patches!!


Thats the only thing I can think of really, but having said that we do know that the Armored Infantrymen themselves drove the Half Tracks, kind of like when I was in with the M113 APCs in 80-81 at Hood in the CAV, it was just Grunts who were selected as Driver for however long that might be for, I sure it's the same today.

#5 SFMike

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Posted 17 July 2012 - 08:43 PM

Thats the only thing I can think of really, but having said that we do know that the Armored Infantrymen themselves drove the Half Tracks, kind of like when I was in with the M113 APCs in 80-81 at Hood in the CAV, it was just Grunts who were selected as Driver for however long that might be for, I sure it's the same today.

From what I have seen, CIBs were often haphazardly awarded.
Not sure how and when they tightened up the regs.

For instance, my dad was 506th PIR withy no Infantry MOS.
He ws awarded the CIB and it is listed on his paerwork.

One can guess about this stuff til the cows ome home.

#6 patches

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 05:57 PM

I have the 1947 89th Infantry Division Yearbook, in it are rosters for all sub units, at the Infantry Regimental HQ leval to include the Regimental Service Company, Cannon and Anti Tank Companies as well as Battalion HQ Companies 98 % of all men of all ranks have the CIB listed. In the HQ and Service Companies at Regimental Level and HQ Companies at Battalion level I know they had Non Infantry personal assigned to it, even down at Company leval. I'm sure it was the same in every Infantry, Airborne, Armored Division in the WWII period, CIB s as long as you were serving in an infantry unit reguardless really of the MOS. This may have been changed by the time of the Korean War

#7 Robersabel

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Posted 20 April 2013 - 09:48 AM

Ref:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/16th_Armored_Division_%28United_States%29

 

The division assembled and proceeded to Waidhaus, Germany, 5 May. The division was then assigned to V Corps,

 

Ref: http://www.lonesentry.com/newspapers/16th-armored/index.html

 

18th Receives Combat Infantry Badge Award

 

"Thirty-two officers and 831 enlisted men have been awarded the Combat Infantryman Badge in the 18th Armored Infantry Battalion."

 

"Only those men who have participated in combat against the enemy are entitled to wear the badge. Enlisted men receive ten dollars per month additional pay after they are awarded the badge."

_______________________________________________________________

 

The above does not identify requirement(s) of MOS of an infantryman and/or assigned to an infantry unit.

 

Any idea if "Thirty-two officers and 831 enlisted men" possessed the MOS of an infantryman?

 

Purpose: To determine why the Army Board is justifying denials to WWII combatants and/or NOK today by requiring the MOS of an infantryman that was initially required in 1961.

 

Obviously, such action is ex post facto and a violation of the U.S. Constitution according to a local attorney.

 

This subject involves an unknown number (perhaps thousands) of Army participants fought the enemy as infantrymen during battles of Bataan and Corregidor 7 December 1941 to 10 May 1942.

 

Based on the time period, only two War Department Circulars apply. WDC 269, dated 27 October 1943, and amended WDC 105, dated 13 March 1944. The latter WDC was retroactive on or after 6 December 1941.

 

It states (in part) Combat Infantryman badge may be awarded to any infantryman...

The requirement to be assigned to an infantry unit was not until 11 May 1944. The requirement to possess an MOS of an infantryman was after WWII.

 

Obviously, the act was performed during the period listed. Circumstances identified by the two WDC's were met.

 

For those not familiar with the history...over 15,000 American military personnel were involved. The majority were captured, killed in action or lost their lives in captivity.

The small number who were repatriated during 1945, only a few were properly processed and awarded full recognition towards combat service including the CIB. The guidelines were somewhat followed until January 2003 when Congressman Patrick Kennedy (RI) presented the CIB to an AAF veteran of Bataan and Corregidor.

 

Numerous avenues have been tested to continue the process applied by the USA, and USAR post WWII, to no avail. As stated, the Army is denying all requests I have been involved contrary to guidelines, and history of recipients of the CIB they fought alongside.

 

One example: Last year, I assisted with the request of CIB for an 95 year old retired Army Lt. Colonel. The Army denied request based on guidelines after the fact. An appeal was submitted. The veteran could wait no longer. He died last month and will be buried without full recognition.

 

Solution? Unknown.


Edited by Robersabel, 20 April 2013 - 09:56 AM.


#8 Robersabel

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Posted 20 April 2013 - 10:38 AM

http://ww2tribute.blogspot.com/2010/01/bills-combat-infantryman-badge-cib.html

 

       The family member of the veteran states:

 

According to the Military Awards Branch of the US Army Human Resources Command (USAHRC) individuals were only to be awarded the CIB in WWII if they possessed an MOS of the following: Light machine gunner (604); Heavy machine gunner (605); Platoon sergeant (651); Squad leader (653); Rifleman (745); Automatic rifleman (746); Heavy weapons NCO (812), or Gun crewman (864).

 

       He later discovered General Orders 16 awarding veteran the CIB without MOS of infantryman which was not required during WWII.

 

       As you may note the confusion, misinterpretation and/or ignoring applicable guidelines by civilian employees and/or members of the USA.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

From what I have seen, CIBs were often haphazardly awarded.
Not sure how and when they tightened up the regs.

For instance, my dad was 506th PIR withy no Infantry MOS.
He ws awarded the CIB and it is listed on his paerwork.

One can guess about this stuff til the cows ome home.

 



#9 Robersabel

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Posted 20 April 2013 - 12:16 PM

You are correct, but a little early.  1961 there is an AR requiring the MOS of an infantryman.

 

 

ARMY REGULATIONS                                   AR 672-5-1

 

AWARDS

 

This copy is a reprint which includes current pages from Changes 1 through 15

 

HEADQUARTERS DEPARTMENT OF THE ARMY MAY 1961

 

96. Combat Infantryman Badge. a. Eligibility requirements.

 

* (1) An individual must be an infantry officer in the grade of colonel or below, or an enlisted man or a warrant officer with infantry MOS, who sub

sequent to 6 December 1941 has satisfactorily performed duty while assigned or attached as a member of an infantry unit of brigade, regimental or smaller size during any period such unit was engaged in active ground combat.

 

How about a WWII Truck Driver Light, MOS 345?  No doubt fought the enemy as an infantryman which qualified the CIB.

 

(If difficulty accessing...right click Refresh)

 

 

http://smg.photobucket.com/user/Robersabel/media/18dCIBAwardedToATruckDriver04_zps47df2851.jpg.html

 

 

 

 

I have the 1947 89th Infantry Division Yearbook, in it are rosters for all sub units, at the Infantry Regimental HQ leval to include the Regimental Service Company, Cannon and Anti Tank Companies as well as Battalion HQ Companies 98 % of all men of all ranks have the CIB listed. In the HQ and Service Companies at Regimental Level and HQ Companies at Battalion level I know they had Non Infantry personal assigned to it, even down at Company leval. I'm sure it was the same in every Infantry, Airborne, Armored Division in the WWII period, CIB s as long as you were serving in an infantry unit reguardless really of the MOS. This may have been changed by the time of the Korean War


Edited by RustyCanteen, 20 April 2013 - 02:27 PM.


#10 78CARg

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Posted 20 April 2013 - 01:02 PM

He may have been despite his MOS been used as a Half Track Driver, the Half Track being the main Armored Fighting Vehical in a WWII Armored Infantry Regiment/ Battalion.


Yep. my great uncle was a Half-track driver and was awarded the CIB.

Clarence-E-Arterburn-Seperation-QualificClarence-E-Arterburn-DD-214.jpg

#11 lazyluke

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Posted 20 April 2013 - 02:31 PM

78CARg, I'm originally from Nebraska, and am aquainted with a Joe Arterburn that works for Cabela's in Sidney, any relation?



#12 78CARg

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Posted 20 April 2013 - 05:26 PM

Arterburn is an interesting surname. It started here in the states with 2 men William and peter. There is no record of it being used overseas. William and peter are brothers meaning all the Arterburns in the US are technically related. However I have not come across a Joe in the research I have done on my branch of the Arterburn family tree.

Just out of curiosity how old is he?

#13 Terry K.

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Posted 20 April 2013 - 07:53 PM

I noticed the same thing with my son. He was a medic assigned to one of the 101st AB Div.'s many Aviation units but because he was not assigned to an Infantry unit he did not receive his Combat Medic Badge even though he was in combat conditions many times, including many Medi-vacs. In fact he was awarded the Air Medal with a "V" device for one action and still no CMB. How is that possible?

 

Terry



#14 Robersabel

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Posted 21 April 2013 - 07:40 AM

                       TITLE 32--NATIONAL DEFENSE

 

                    CHAPTER V--DEPARTMENT OF THE ARMY

 

PART 578_DECORATIONS, MEDALS, RIBBONS, AND SIMILAR DEVICES--Table of Contents

 

Sec.  578.70  Combat Medical Badge.

 

    (a) Eligibility requirements. (1) The Combat Medical Badge (CMB) may

be awarded to members of the Army Medical Department (colonels and

below), the Naval Medical Department (captains and below), the Air Force

Medical Service (colonels and below), assigned or attached by

appropriate orders to an infantry unit of brigade, regimental, or

smaller size, or to a medical unit of company or smaller size, organic

to an infantry unit of brigade or smaller size, during any period the

infantry unit is engaged in actual ground combat on or after December 6,

1941. Battle participation credit alone is not sufficient;



#15 lazyluke

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Posted 21 April 2013 - 07:44 AM

78CARg, I think he's late 50's early 60's.



#16 Parman

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Posted 07 March 2014 - 11:18 AM

78carg
I just looked up your great uncle in my uncles HISTORY of the 14th ARMORED DIVISION. His name is under the 68th armored infantry battalion headquarters company. Afterburner, Clarence E. Pvt. Blue Hill, Nebr

#17 BROBS

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Posted 07 March 2014 - 11:53 AM

About strange awarding of the CIB..

I have a grouping to a Coastal Artillery man (501 CA AA) who got a PH on Attu during the final Bonzai raid.

I am not sure if he got the CIB for this action or simply for being attached to the 7th ID in the Aleutians?

 

-Brian



#18 78CARg

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Posted 07 March 2014 - 12:22 PM

78carg
I just looked up your great uncle in my uncles HISTORY of the 14th ARMORED DIVISION. His name is under the 68th armored infantry battalion headquarters company. Afterburner, Clarence E. Pvt. Blue Hill, Nebr


Thank you very much. Learning about Clarence has been interesting. Unfortunately I was never able to meet him.

About strange awarding of the CIB..
I have a grouping to a Coastal Artillery man (501 CA AA) who got a PH on Attu during the final Bonzai raid.
I am not sure if he got the CIB for this action or simply for being attached to the 7th ID in the Aleutians?
 
-Brian


My grandpa was also a Coast Artillery man on Attu, but I have no Idea if he was involved in the Bonzai charge. he was not awarded the CIB. So my guess is that your guy got it for his actions during the attack.

The criteria for the CIB lists the following that could explain your guys award.

2. Be assigned to an infantry unit during such time as the unit is engaged in active ground combat.

3. Actively participate in such ground combat.

Has this group been posted on the forum? I would be very interested to see it.

Josh A.



#19 BROBS

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Posted 07 March 2014 - 04:01 PM

My grandpa was also a Coast Artillery man on Attu, but I have no Idea if he was involved in the Bonzai charge. he was not awarded the CIB. So my guess is that your guy got it for his actions during the attack.

The criteria for the CIB lists the following that could explain your guys award.

2. Be assigned to an infantry unit during such time as the unit is engaged in active ground combat.

3. Actively participate in such ground combat.

Has this group been posted on the forum? I would be very interested to see it.

Josh A.

Josh,

I don't believe I've posted it.. I bought it from John (History Man).

I will take a few pics and make a thread this weekend and send you the link.

 

thanks,

Brian


Edited by BROBS, 07 March 2014 - 04:01 PM.


#20 jgawne

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Posted 07 March 2014 - 07:40 PM

You need to separate MOS from "infantryman" in your mind.

 

In WW2 ( not as it is now) everyone in an infantry regiment was an infantryman- except for the attached medics and chaplains. So if you were a cook in an infantry regiment, you were still an infantryman. Radioman? Infantry. Mechanic? Infantry.  The MOS was just what specific job you were considered qualified to do, but you didn't even have had to been to school for that- just put in enough time in that job and you eventually get that MOS. On the job training so to speak.

 

And everyone was considered interchangeable if need be. Anyone in a rifle company could be, and was, swapped around as needed to fill gaps.

 

Same as everyone in an artillery unit was an artilleryman, or everyone in a signal corps battalion was in the SC. This is why when you look at the T/O&Es you always see the medical and chaplain position as "attached" and not an actual part of the unit.

 

They did try to be good about awarding the CIB in WW2, but were not as anal about it as they became later on.  But folks just "attached" to an infantry unit were not eligible- such as forward observers.  Sometimes an officer or clerk might put someone in for various reasons that should not have been,  but these were picked up a lot and at times even rescinded.


Edited by jgawne, 07 March 2014 - 07:42 PM.



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